WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an end

West Coast represent! Remember be vague on spots!

WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an end

Postby Matt mattison » December 7th, 2017, 11:36 am

WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an end of an era !!!
CHECK OUT MY YOU TUBE CHANNEL AT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmattison/videos

THANK YOU TO MY AWESOME & SUPPORTIVE SPONSORS
Image
User avatar
Matt mattison
kook
 
Posts: 517
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby dam » December 7th, 2017, 2:17 pm

Wait, seriously? Got anymore info on this?
User avatar
dam
diving god
 
Posts: 2185
Joined: June 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Matt mattison » December 7th, 2017, 2:22 pm

dam wrote:Wait, seriously? Got anymore info on this?

seriously !!! it is a done deal !!! an end of a era and life style and culture
CHECK OUT MY YOU TUBE CHANNEL AT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmattison/videos

THANK YOU TO MY AWESOME & SUPPORTIVE SPONSORS
Image
User avatar
Matt mattison
kook
 
Posts: 517
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby dirtydiver76 » December 7th, 2017, 4:17 pm

dam wrote:Wait, seriously? Got anymore info on this?


They closed the recreational season for 2018 with a sunset clause next year where they are supposed to review it and see what the numbers are. Based on some of the reports from scientist and head of dfg doesn’t look like they will reopen it anytime soon.

I’m sure people like Josh Russo with Waterman’s Alliance will help us out with all the details soon.
dirtydiver76
noob
 
Posts: 19
Joined: October 2017

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby thereefgeek » December 7th, 2017, 5:16 pm

I'm pretty much over it and have been for a while, but I saw the handwriting on the wall a few years ago.
Don't get me wrong; if someone else wants to do all the gutting, slicing, and pounding, I'd be more than happy to critique their cooking technique.

Unfortunately, this is just another chink in the armor of our rights to fish. And some of it may have merit. Poaching, overfishing, urchin overpopulation outcompeting the slower moving abalone for food supplies previously burned off by El Nino kelp die-off...

This closure (overdue as it may be) is nothing short of saying that global climate change is requiring a complete ban of all internal combustion motor vehicles until atmospheric carbon dioxide levels return to "acceptable" levels.

Once they take it away, we'll never get it back.
"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do.
Life's been good to me so far."

-Joe Walsh
User avatar
thereefgeek
polespearo
 
Posts: 23
Joined: April 2016
Location: too far inland

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Bill McIntyre » December 8th, 2017, 8:58 am

I sympathize. I wasn't willing to drive 500 miles or more for a few snails, but I recall feeling pissed when they closed Southern California for abs. When was that- the early 80s?

It might have been necessary then, and maybe its necessary now in NorCal- I don't know since I don't dive up there. But I agree that once something is closed, its very unlikely that we'll get it back. People are seeing a lot of abs in SoCal now, but I haven't heard any discussion of opening it up again.
email me at wsbhtr@cox.net
User avatar
Bill McIntyre
billie mac
 
Posts: 3659
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Clemente, CA

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED!!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby dam » December 8th, 2017, 9:48 am

dirtydiver76 wrote:
dam wrote:Wait, seriously? Got anymore info on this?


They closed the recreational season for 2018 with a sunset clause next year where they are supposed to review it and see what the numbers are. Based on some of the reports from scientist and head of dfg doesn’t look like they will reopen it anytime soon.

I’m sure people like Josh Russo with Waterman’s Alliance will help us out with all the details soon.

Thanks. That sucks for a lot of us but at this point, we just have to believe that the closure is what's best for the species. You're right about the whole culture being gone, though. I remember reading about diving for abs when I was just joining the sport and feeling a sense of marvel and wonder. Now I can't live it myself. :'(
User avatar
dam
diving god
 
Posts: 2185
Joined: June 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Matt mattison » December 8th, 2017, 11:14 am

CHECK OUT MY YOU TUBE CHANNEL AT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmattison/videos

THANK YOU TO MY AWESOME & SUPPORTIVE SPONSORS
Image
User avatar
Matt mattison
kook
 
Posts: 517
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Kirby » December 10th, 2017, 2:46 pm

Looking back to when I first started spearfishing and harvesting from the ocean, I remember reading books and magazines written by divers who had many years before my time, cut their teeth in what was now my backyard - they have since become spearfishing legends. On the first internet forums, I remember reading posts written by those people who’d been silently hunting kelp beds—decades before I was born and without my knowledge even though I started surfing nearby. Over the years, I’ve met many of these divers and some I’m thankful enough to call friends.

The information I gleaned from them was vast, but what was always most alluring was how they spoke of the sea. They argued that freedive hunting was an almost spiritual way to harvest dinner. It wasn’t a sport or a hobby, but for them was an integral part of their lives. They were connected to the environment and saw themselves as a part of it, not the owner of it. And because of this deep connection to the ocean and the animals that called it home, the ethics (and responsibilities) that came with this type of hunting were of the utmost importance. I have tried hard to carry that forward with my own actions; including spending a decade of my life studying the marine environment. In school, I specialized my studies on the biology of red abalone. This added to my deep sense of responsibility for not just abalone, but for all of the species that I hunt.

Since my early days of reading, listening and learning to dive, I’ve killed and eaten countless marine animals. I didn’t make offerings to the ocean or say prayers to the fish I’ve killed. I’ve even made spearfishing videos highlighting me and my friends ripping abalone from rocks, lobsters from caves and driving hardened pieces of steel into fish. Maybe my ethics aren’t as high as they should be. But one thing I would never say is that my desire to continue harvesting these animals is more important than the health of a species.

I recently read a quote from Brandi Easter, a longtime friend and hero of mine. In response to the 2018 closure, she said, “The abalone fishery needs our stewardship, not our selfishness.” For decades, Brandi has sacrificed time and money to fight for laws, fair laws, that maintain a healthy balance between freedive hunters and the marine life we target. These days, when I think of spearfishing ethics, it is Brandi’s voice that I hear, talking before the dive about the fish she is targeting (her shopping list) and after the dive about the fish she let swim away.

In contrast to Brandi’s quote, “WE GOT F#@%ED !!!!” is a sentiment I can’t fathom, considering not only what I’ve learned, but considering the voices and lessons from those who came before us. To me, that sentence could only be said by a person who considers only their own enjoyment rather than thinking about the environment, about the species’ basic biological needs, or about the future of something we all enjoy. To me, it seems like something that would be said by a person who would eat every last abalone in the ocean, because they felt it was their birthright.

Abalone populations in Southern California are in their current state and the fishery is closed because The Department of Fish and Wildlife mismanaged the resource and allowed people to eat them all. Not surprisingly, divers didn’t self-regulate. What Fish and Wildlife is doing now is attempting to prevent this from happening again, but this time in Northern California. If this means we have to wait one season or 20 for numbers to rebound, so be it. This is the only responsible move. You can argue with the science and data collection methods all you want, but you’re doing it from a place of selfishness. You can still have camping and dive trips to the coast. You can still go diving. You can still catch fish, crabs and scallops. The only things you can’t do is catch a dozen snails each year, hang their shells on your wall or add to your ‘ten count.’ And if this is for the sake of the species and fishery health, we may not like it, it is undoubtedly sad, but everyone who cares about abalone should support the decision.
User avatar
Kirby
spearo
 
Posts: 460
Joined: July 2013
Location: Rarotonga, Cook Islands

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Bill McIntyre » December 10th, 2017, 2:59 pm

Well said Kirby.

On another forum I’ve been accused of feeling that I’ve had a good run and not really caring if my kids and grandkids get to dive for abs. It’s exactly the opposite. I hope today’s young divers will be willing to defer gratification so that there will be abs for their children to take. Of course it’s true that nothing ever seems to get opened after it’s closed, but there is no point in keeping it open if we wipe them out. If they recover as they seem to be doing in SoCal, at least there is a chance my kids will get to dive for them.
email me at wsbhtr@cox.net
User avatar
Bill McIntyre
billie mac
 
Posts: 3659
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Clemente, CA

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Eric Bodj » December 10th, 2017, 3:55 pm

Kirby, I'm thankful we have people like you in our local marine biology- someone who understands both sides of the coin. I think the frustration and anger comes from those,including myself, who believe these regulations are coming from false data and people who's agenda is to close the take of every specie until we have nothing left to hunt.

When there are closures like this I think "great, they won again." It's comforting to have you, a scientist and waterman, affirm this regulatory change. Although, historically speaking, once something gets taken away from us it's done for good.
User avatar
Eric Bodj
spearo
 
Posts: 409
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » December 10th, 2017, 4:09 pm

Sorry Kirby
I have to disagree with you on this ,full closure will do nothing to help and will most likely do more damage by leaving more starving /unhealthy /non breeding abs out there .

They should have made open season on purple urchins and begged divers to go out and smash all they could .

There are soo many other points I could also go into but I'm getting tired of repeating myself
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED!!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Kirby » December 10th, 2017, 6:31 pm

phil herranen wrote:Sorry Kirby
I have to disagree with you on this ,full closure will do nothing to help and will most likely do more damage by leaving more starving /unhealthy /non breeding abs out there .

They should have made open season on purple urchins and begged divers to go out and smash all they could .


Thanks, Phil. I actually like when people disagree with me.

And I disagree with you. Full closure will do one thing: leave ~150,000 abalone in the water next year.

Maybe it is possible that removing starving/unhealthy/non-breeding abalone could free up resources that could be used by healthier abalone. But that is a massive assumption. If you did cull abalone, you'd need to ensure that competitors like urchins don't fill the open niche and that only the abalone that are certain to die are removed - this would be nearly impossible. And what recreational abalone diver in their right mind would target a withered animal with a nonexistent foot when a healthy one is right next to it (unless the withered abalone had a shell over 25.4 cm :rolls:)?

I do somewhat agree with you regarding the urchins. While I haven't seen the "outbreak" up there myself, I have read about successful urchin smashing programs. Considering how hard it would be to motivate Joe Public to smash their urchin limit on their free time, maybe petitioning DFW to increase the purple urchin limit (so you guys can smash as many as you want) in areas where they are out-competing abalone would be a good place to start.
User avatar
Kirby
spearo
 
Posts: 460
Joined: July 2013
Location: Rarotonga, Cook Islands

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Kirby » December 10th, 2017, 6:53 pm

Thanks guys.

Bill McIntyre wrote:Well said Kirby.

On another forum I’ve been accused of feeling that I’ve had a good run and not really caring if my kids and grandkids get to dive for abs. It’s exactly the opposite. I hope today’s young divers will be willing to defer gratification so that there will be abs for their children to take. Of course it’s true that nothing ever seems to get opened after it’s closed, but there is no point in keeping it open if we wipe them out. If they recover as they seem to be doing in SoCal, at least there is a chance my kids will get to dive for them.


Bill- You've been spearfishing in California longer than most people I know. Can you list some no-take species that shouldn't be?

Eric Bodj wrote:Kirby, I'm thankful we have people like you in our local marine biology- someone who understands both sides of the coin. I think the frustration and anger comes from those,including myself, who believe these regulations are coming from false data and people who's agenda is to close the take of every specie until we have nothing left to hunt.

When there are closures like this I think "great, they won again." It's comforting to have you, a scientist and waterman, affirm this regulatory change. Although, historically speaking, once something gets taken away from us it's done for good.


Eric- I don't work for DFW anymore and have been completely out of the loop as far as California fisheries management goes for the last two years. While that might not be so comforting, the people I know in DFW who work on the abalone fishery are people like me, who directed their careers to maintain fisheries they love. I went to grad school, was advised by and worked with these people. When we weren't working, we were free diving and spearfishing. As I've said time and time again, these people would be out a job if the fishery shut down. I can't speak for the commissioners (I don't know them), but the scientists I know aim to keep the ecosystem AND fisheries healthy. From my position, there aren't two sides, there is no "us" and "them".
User avatar
Kirby
spearo
 
Posts: 460
Joined: July 2013
Location: Rarotonga, Cook Islands

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » December 10th, 2017, 7:12 pm

Kirby wrote:
phil herranen wrote:Sorry Kirby
I have to disagree with you on this ,full closure will do nothing to help and will most likely do more damage by leaving more starving /unhealthy /non breeding abs out there .

They should have made open season on purple urchins and begged divers to go out and smash all they could .


Thanks, Phil. I actually like when people disagree with me.

And I disagree with you. Full closure will do one thing: leave ~150,000 abalone in the water next year.

Maybe it is possible that removing starving/unhealthy/non-breeding abalone could free up resources that could be used by healthier abalone. But that is a massive assumption. If you did cull abalone, you'd need to ensure that competitors like urchins don't fill the open niche and that only the abalone that are certain to die are removed - this would be nearly impossible. And what recreational abalone diver in their right mind would target a withered animal with a nonexistent foot when a healthy one is right next to it (unless the withered abalone had a shell over 25.4 cm :rolls:)?

I do somewhat agree with you regarding the urchins. While I haven't seen the "outbreak" up there myself, I have read about successful urchin smashing programs. Considering how hard it would be to motivate Joe Public to smash their urchin limit on their free time, maybe petitioning DFW to increase the purple urchin limit (so you guys can smash as many as you want) in areas where they are out-competing abalone would be a good place to start.

What if leaving those 150000 abalone cause 300000 to starve and wash up on the beach this winter ? There will probably be far more than that if we get a good swell winter

I know of a couple groups that raised money and had Comercial divers lined up to smash urchins ,and only needed dfg aproval to start , it never came . They have been trying for years to make it happen .

As far as judging health I doubt many divers really judge the ab before taking it , I just pull the first 3 good sized abs that are next to each other and go back to spearfishing .

In the end this is a grand experiment of what ifs 200 years in the making , and the first time in thousands of years that humans haven't taken abalone in California
I really think they should have maintained some level of take ,the fact that they didn't really shows that they would rather just close rather than properly manage the fishery and a really doubt it will ever re open cements the veiw of many that the department is much better at mismanagement thanmanagement. Lobster is next , they have let hoop nets run rampant and haven't done anything about it , I give it 5 to 10 years before it's a Comercial only fishery
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Steve G » December 10th, 2017, 7:30 pm

Kirby wrote:Bill- You've been spearfishing in California longer than most people I know. Can you list some no-take species that shouldn't be?


I'm not Bill but I believe that we could use a carefully managed take of Giant Sea Bass. I believe a carefully managed take could be sustainable and would re-assure the rest of us that once we lose something it isn't forever.
Steve G
kook
 
Posts: 577
Joined: July 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Calwaterman » December 10th, 2017, 8:51 pm

Kirby wrote:The information I gleaned from them was vast, but what was always most alluring was how they spoke of the sea. They argued that freedive hunting was an almost spiritual way to harvest dinner. It wasn’t a sport or a hobby, but for them was an integral part of their lives. They were connected to the environment and saw themselves as a part of it, not the owner of it. And because of this deep connection to the ocean and the animals that called it home, the ethics (and responsibilities) that came with this type of hunting were of the utmost importance. I have tried hard to carry that forward with my own actions; including spending a decade of my life studying the marine environment. In school, I specialized my studies on the biology of red abalone. This added to my deep sense of responsibility for not just abalone, but for all of the species that I hunt.

Kirby. Its glad to see that someone still gets it in a world of " product,trophies and fan pages"! Thank you. While each of have our own reasons for doing what we do, There is one thing that is at the core for all of us. And that is the concept of "Entitlement" [b] It is Not about Entitlement .... It is about Responsibility![/b] Every Single One of us has that Responsibility to live up to and some just don't get it. Hats off to you!...........
Cody
Calwaterman
spearo
 
Posts: 145
Joined: July 2013
Location: The Blue Planet

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Rob102 » December 11th, 2017, 12:21 am

In the end we are just beating a dead horse. It doesn’t matter who is right or who has the moral high ground. By no fault of our own, it’s over.
User avatar
Rob102
spearo
 
Posts: 224
Joined: August 2013
Location: Caspar, Ca

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby John Hughes » December 11th, 2017, 4:42 am

I'm a little confused as I don't really follow the details of abalone management. Is there an issue with the specie due to lack of kelp and an overpopulation of purple urchin or because they were overfished as Kirby stated? I ask because I get tired of people assuming that the fishery was overfished down here and closed because of that rather than because withering foot disease wiped them out.
User avatar
John Hughes
cupcake
 
Posts: 3677
Joined: July 2013
Location: san pedro

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » December 11th, 2017, 7:24 am

John Hughes wrote:I'm a little confused as I don't really follow the details of abalone management. Is there an issue with the specie due to lack of kelp and an overpopulation of purple urchin or because they were overfished as Kirby stated? I ask because I get tired of people assuming that the fishery was overfished down here and closed because of that rather than because withering foot disease wiped them out.

The starfish got a virus and died off ,they are the primary control for urchins , this let the purple urchins boom , purple urchins eat the kelp holdfast and then move on to the next one , since abalone eat primarily kelp fronds that have fallen off ,when the kelp is gone they starve to death .

This problem has nothing to do with take .
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Bill McIntyre » December 11th, 2017, 7:34 am

Withering foot disease wiped them out down here and the starfish virus may have done the damage up north, but we have no control over either. The only thing we can do to help them recover is to quit taking them. If natural causes imperil the population, we only make it worse by taking the survivors.

And its silly to say that our take didn't contribute. In 1965 I used to cut them up to attract calicos and sheephead for photographs with my Nikonos I. That cannot have helped.
Attachments
email me at wsbhtr@cox.net
User avatar
Bill McIntyre
billie mac
 
Posts: 3659
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Clemente, CA

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » December 11th, 2017, 7:49 am

Bill McIntyre wrote:Withering foot disease wiped them out down here and the starfish virus may have done the damage up north, but we have no control over either. The only thing we can do to help them recover is to quit taking them. If natural causes imperil the population, we only make it worse by taking the survivors.

And its silly to say that our take didn't contribute. In 1965 I used to cut them up to attract calicos and sheephead for photographs with my Nikonos I. That cannot have helped.

No the only thing we can do to help is to remove urchins , if the urchins are not dealt with the abs will crash even fuether
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Kirby » December 11th, 2017, 8:29 am

John Hughes wrote:I'm a little confused as I don't really follow the details of abalone management. Is there an issue with the specie due to lack of kelp and an overpopulation of purple urchin or because they were overfished as Kirby stated? I ask because I get tired of people assuming that the fishery was overfished down here and closed because of that rather than because withering foot disease wiped them out.


To be clear, abalone were overfished in Southern California due to mismanagement. Withering foot came after and was just a nail in their coffin. Apparently abalone are starving in northern California which is thought to be a result of warm water temperatures causing kelp die off and purple urchin competition.
User avatar
Kirby
spearo
 
Posts: 460
Joined: July 2013
Location: Rarotonga, Cook Islands

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Rob102 » December 11th, 2017, 8:42 am

John Hughes wrote:I'm a little confused as I don't really follow the details of abalone management. Is there an issue with the specie due to lack of kelp and an overpopulation of purple urchin or because they were overfished as Kirby stated? I ask because I get tired of people assuming that the fishery was overfished down here and closed because of that rather than because withering foot disease wiped them out.


They were never overfished by any stretch of the imagination. Even now they are more abundant than found in a natural ecosystem. Over a hundred years ago the Russian fur traders killed off their primary predator, the sea otter. Numbers skyrocketed and there was little if no control on take. Abalone were taken by the ton. DFG got involved and the “Cadillac” fishery was born. Limits continued to ratchet down take and fictitious stories were concocted about the dire straits of the imperiled abalone. Management devised impossible number thresholds to maintain a fishery at an absurdly unsustainably high population density. Fast forward to three years ago; warm water blob, sea star die off, purple urchin population explosion, several HAB’s and severely reduced kelp forests. Normally abalone would only be found in cracks save and sound, but now the multitude suffer from competition over space and food, and the population is crashing under its own weight. Weakened by starvation many abalone have moved in to shallow areas in mass congregations in search of food are washed ashore by rough seas. The season has been closed, but until kelp stalks return and the urchin abate, the trajectory of the abalone population is on the decline. And still, there are millions.
User avatar
Rob102
spearo
 
Posts: 224
Joined: August 2013
Location: Caspar, Ca

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Erizo » December 11th, 2017, 11:01 am

I am thankful that we have access to the resources we have. I am certainly not perfect to some people standards. With the little knowledge I have, I make an effort to do what makes sense for the benefit of the resources while I harvest.

I am all for preservation of the specie, but I am also against closures. I don't see things black or white. Are we to believe that the only way to preserve the specie is to close ? Is it really possible that in the 20th century and with the information and technology available there is just no other way?

Has CA already tried working with the diving communities to better manage the abalone? I don't know.

IMO it is hard to believe that there is just no other way to manage.
User avatar
Erizo
spearo
 
Posts: 71
Joined: July 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Matt mattison » December 11th, 2017, 11:33 am

simple why abalone is closed bad junk science and a pre determined agenda,
Last edited by Matt mattison on December 14th, 2017, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
CHECK OUT MY YOU TUBE CHANNEL AT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmattison/videos

THANK YOU TO MY AWESOME & SUPPORTIVE SPONSORS
Image
User avatar
Matt mattison
kook
 
Posts: 517
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby scorpaenichthys » December 11th, 2017, 12:37 pm

Erizo wrote:I am thankful that we have access to the resources we have. I am certainly not perfect to some people standards. With the little knowledge I have, I make an effort to do what makes sense for the benefit of the resources while I harvest.

I am all for preservation of the specie, but I am also against closures. I don't see things black or white. Are we to believe that the only way to preserve the specie is to close ? Is it really possible that in the 20th century and with the information and technology available there is just no other way?

Has CA already tried working with the diving communities to better manage the abalone? I don't know.

IMO it is hard to believe that there is just no other way to manage.



While I would absolutely rather see a fishery remain open where possible, I think the short answer to your question is (as Bill and Kirby have said), yes. In any species management scenario it's possible for the numbers to get so low that closure is the only viable option. Obviously until you get to that point there are plenty of other management options to explore, but you can't fault managers for drawing the line a comfortable difference from the absolute minimum population size. Nature is complex and variable, and we still don't understand most of it. Combine that with the fact that managing on a species-by-species basis is often an exercise in futility anyways, and the result is that a precautionary approach is sometimes going to require closures. A well-designed network of MPAs can serve as a buffer to regional or statewide population issues, but when the problem is widespread enough even that's not a sure bet.

The goal of management is to ensure a functioning and economically viable fishery. Like Kirby said, if the state did away with take or closed the entire coastline, all of these scientists and regulators would be out of a job, and recreational and commercial fisheries bring in so much money for the state that the state has every reason to keep the fisheries functioning. But to be categorically opposed to closures under any circumstance completely ignores the (very real) possibility that there's a population level low enough that any take just serves to make things worse. And yeah, sometimes the driving force is something (or a couple somethings) beyond our control. But that doesn't mean that we as divers don't have a responsibility to step back and let the situation improve instead of just continuing under the illusion that just because we're not out there gill netting or bottom trawling means we do no harm.

It's one thing to say that freedive hunting is far less impactful than other forms of fishing. Nobody who understands the sport would argue with that, and it's a major justification for why a lot of us do this in the first place. But it's something altogether different to claim that just because our method of take is not as impactful as the alternatives, it's not impactful at all, or that it's always beneficial to the environment regardless of the underlying circumstances or confounding environmental stressors. The reality is that we all came into this sport having to deal with the combined outfall of previous generations' mismanagement and other environmental changes, and sometimes no matter how much it sucks, we have to adjust our behavior to deal with that reality or risk losing our fisheries altogether.
scorpaenichthys
polespearo
 
Posts: 32
Joined: December 2016
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Breathlessagony » December 13th, 2017, 4:04 pm

It is clear that neither Kirby nor Bill has a good grasp of the environmental or political issues involved with this closure.

Matt,

Thank you for all your tireless work trying to prevent the complete closure. This is a devastating development!
User avatar
Breathlessagony
noob
 
Posts: 10
Joined: April 2015
Location: Orange county

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby John Hughes » December 13th, 2017, 9:36 pm

thanks for the clarification. The So Cal closure was a little before my time and I'm sorry to see the rest of the state closed during my lifetime. I'm all for management, especially when specie are in trouble, but after seeing what a sham the MPA process was firsthand I just don't have a lot of faith in the system anymore. Regardless of whether the closure is right or not, it's still tragic to see the end of an era.
User avatar
John Hughes
cupcake
 
Posts: 3677
Joined: July 2013
Location: san pedro

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Nate Baker » December 14th, 2017, 8:36 am

Breathlessagony wrote:It is clear that neither Kirby nor Bill has a good grasp of the environmental or political issues involved with this closure.


What are the environmental and political issues involved with this closure?
User avatar
Nate Baker
prick
 
Posts: 724
Joined: July 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Matt mattison » December 14th, 2017, 9:24 am

Breathlessagony wrote:It is clear that neither Kirby nor Bill has a good grasp of the environmental or political issues involved with this closure.

Matt,

Thank you for all your tireless work trying to prevent the complete closure. This is a devastating development!


Thanks, but the ones to really thank are guys like Josh Russo and Jack Likins, I was mainly just a vocal voice and info poster and letter writer and fundraiser
CHECK OUT MY YOU TUBE CHANNEL AT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmattison/videos

THANK YOU TO MY AWESOME & SUPPORTIVE SPONSORS
Image
User avatar
Matt mattison
kook
 
Posts: 517
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Westbury » December 15th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Question:
When were take limits reduced and report cards introduced?
Before this abalone "crisis" or after?
And I agree with Phil. Lobster will be next.
And let's all be serious here. No one can deny that there are people in this state with money and power that are philosophically opposed to the recreational take of game.
User avatar
Westbury
kook
 
Posts: 668
Joined: July 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby John Hughes » December 15th, 2017, 12:46 pm

[quote="Westbury"

And I agree with Phil. Lobster will be next.
And let's all be serious here. No one can deny that there are people in this state with money and power that are philosophically opposed to the recreational take of game.[/quote]

This and this.
User avatar
John Hughes
cupcake
 
Posts: 3677
Joined: July 2013
Location: san pedro

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby squidhunter » December 16th, 2017, 7:26 am

After you guys get done killing the purpuratus up there please come down to the channel islands!! We all need to kill those F'ers or take all of them and dump them in the basin or channel or something.
User avatar
squidhunter
spearo
 
Posts: 175
Joined: July 2014

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Scottywotty » December 18th, 2017, 2:45 pm

It has been said before, same as w/ Sargasso weed that if you try to kill it, by pulling it loose or crushing them it will only exacerbate the issue. The only real way to destroy them is to remove the entire organism completely from the ecosystem.

Scotty
Scottywotty
spearo
 
Posts: 86
Joined: July 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby chris oak » December 18th, 2017, 3:52 pm

Around here the density was so thick we got stuck with them on a lot of the shoredives. Between the kelp dying off and the seastar wasting disease which seemed to transfer to the urchins they got wiped out. Now the kelp is coming back and I'm sure the population of urchins will rebound.

I'm not a firm believer in smashing them because it's labor intensive and I have a gut feeling that they spawn when they are crushed, even though the heal the bay guys claimed they were not. Lots of money were spent in the eradication program which imo is bs.
User avatar
chris oak
Enforcer
 
Posts: 4792
Joined: June 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby gringo sushi » December 20th, 2017, 11:00 pm

I feel lucky to have gotten one good ab dive trip in. Little did I know that the ab chowder I made with my last two abs would be the last of it.

I took the family on a fantastic RV trip to Sonoma/Mendo and have looked forward to doing it again when my boys were old enough to dive it with me.

The ratchet has probably tightened on us yet another click. So sad
Todd Farquhar
LB Neptune
tfarquhar@me.com

“There is one thing which gives radiance to everything. It is the idea of something around the corner.” G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
gringo sushi
spearo
 
Posts: 274
Joined: August 2013
Location: So Cal

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 3rd, 2018, 2:55 pm

I'm late to the party but wanted to add my $0.02.

Matt Mattison and Phil Herranen are a couple of the most passionate and skilled divers in norcal, but they aren't marine biologists. Fisheries management is complex and it's important that we have professionals making these decisions. To suggest that these experts are simply pushing their politics is absurd. The proof is that anyone here could pursue a degree in marine biology, get a job at DFW, and eventually help make management decisions using the best available science. In fact I've never met someone employed by DFW who wasn't passionate about hunting or fishing - how else do you think they became so interested in that line of work? They are part of our tribe. And I say that with a couple DFW citations to my name.

To those who say "once closed we'll never get it back," consider that lingcod, king salmon, striped bass, canary rockfish, and cabezon have all seen limits increased, fisheries reopened, or legal sizes decreased in the past few years. We have healthy fisheries in California which are monitored, regulated and enforced. I've dived in places where that's not the case, and it makes me appreciate what we've got here.

It's OK to gripe about closures and be disappointed by DFW decisions - I'm disappointed that I won't be diving for abalone this year - but let's not lose sight of the important role they play in protecting our resources and our sport for future generations. We're on the same team.
User avatar
apneanaut
spearo
 
Posts: 406
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Francisco

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » January 3rd, 2018, 3:27 pm

apneanaut wrote:I'm late to the party but wanted to add my $0.02.

Matt Mattison and Phil Herranen are a couple of the most passionate and skilled divers in norcal, but they aren't marine biologists. Fisheries management is complex and it's important that we have professionals making these decisions. To suggest that these experts are simply pushing their politics is absurd. The proof is that anyone here could pursue a degree in marine biology, get a job at DFW, and eventually help make management decisions using the best available science. In fact I've never met someone employed by DFW who wasn't passionate about hunting or fishing - how else do you think they became so interested in that line of work? They are part of our tribe. And I say that with a couple DFW citations to my name.

To those who say "once closed we'll never get it back," consider that lingcod, king salmon, striped bass, canary rockfish, and cabezon have all seen limits increased, fisheries reopened, or legal sizes decreased in the past few years. We have healthy fisheries in California which are monitored, regulated and enforced. I've dived in places where that's not the case, and it makes me appreciate what we've got here.

It's OK to gripe about closures and be disappointed by DFW decisions - I'm disappointed that I won't be diving for abalone this year - but let's not lose sight of the important role they play in protecting our resources and our sport for future generations. We're on the same team.

You are right management is very complex and dfg has a long track record of gross mismanagement. And the what they did was basically "we will do nothing and see how it plays out" this is a back room land grab plain and simple.

They haven't even done the surveys that they said they were going to do when they "temporarily " closed south of the gate . If you thing just because someone has a biology degree they know more that people that spend their lives around the ocean ,and spent their lives learning about it ,then you've got a lot to learn .

The wardens are great , but most of the board are not sportsman, most don't hunt or fish and I trust them as much as i trust gas station sushi
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Matt mattison » January 3rd, 2018, 3:44 pm

phil herranen wrote:
apneanaut wrote:I'm late to the party but wanted to add my $0.02.

Matt Mattison and Phil Herranen are a couple of the most passionate and skilled divers in norcal, but they aren't marine biologists. Fisheries management is complex and it's important that we have professionals making these decisions. To suggest that these experts are simply pushing their politics is absurd. The proof is that anyone here could pursue a degree in marine biology, get a job at DFW, and eventually help make management decisions using the best available science. In fact I've never met someone employed by DFW who wasn't passionate about hunting or fishing - how else do you think they became so interested in that line of work? They are part of our tribe. And I say that with a couple DFW citations to my name.

To those who say "once closed we'll never get it back," consider that lingcod, king salmon, striped bass, canary rockfish, and cabezon have all seen limits increased, fisheries reopened, or legal sizes decreased in the past few years. We have healthy fisheries in California which are monitored, regulated and enforced. I've dived in places where that's not the case, and it makes me appreciate what we've got here.

It's OK to gripe about closures and be disappointed by DFW decisions - I'm disappointed that I won't be diving for abalone this year - but let's not lose sight of the important role they play in protecting our resources and our sport for future generations. We're on the same team.

You are right management is very complex and dfg has a long track record of gross mismanagement. And the what they did was basically "we will do nothing and see how it plays out" this is a back room land grab plain and simple.

They haven't even done the surveys that they said they were going to do when they "temporarily " closed south of the gate . If you thing just because someone has a biology degree they know more that people that spend their lives around the ocean ,and spent their lives learning about it ,then you've got a lot to learn .

The wardens are great , but most of the board are not sportsman, most don't hunt or fish and I trust them as much as i trust gas station sushi


very well said Phil, I could not have summed it better. I feel bad for you Apeanaut if you actually believe DFW has any clue of what there doing when it comes to management with ca resources, they have proven this time after time !!! Like Phil stated
"dfg has a long track record of gross mismanagement. And the what they did was basically "we will do nothing and see how it plays out" this is a back room land grab plain and simple.
They haven't even done the surveys that they said they were going to do when they "temporarily " closed south of the gate . If you think just because someone has a biology degree they know more that people that spend their lives around the ocean ,and spent their lives learning about it ,then you've got a lot to learn"


a degree with out real world experience and involvement under water in the environment is a good as the toilet paper I wipe my ass with !
CHECK OUT MY YOU TUBE CHANNEL AT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmattison/videos

THANK YOU TO MY AWESOME & SUPPORTIVE SPONSORS
Image
User avatar
Matt mattison
kook
 
Posts: 517
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » January 3rd, 2018, 3:51 pm

If dfg wasn't pushing politics, we would be able to hunt mountain lions , (and someone would not have been removed from the board for simply having shot one legally out of state) and pigs and turkeys would be treated like the invasives they are and would be no season no limit , same with striped bass
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby peter culp » January 4th, 2018, 11:22 am

If you don't think there is a political element to this, then you missed the the name change from Dept of Fish and GAME to Dept of Fish and WILDLIFE.
User avatar
peter culp
polespearo
 
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2014
Location: Capo Beach, CA

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 5th, 2018, 12:06 pm

phil herranen wrote:You are right management is very complex and dfg has a long track record of gross mismanagement. And the what they did was basically "we will do nothing and see how it plays out" this is a back room land grab plain and simple.

They haven't even done the surveys that they said they were going to do when they "temporarily " closed south of the gate . If you thing just because someone has a biology degree they know more that people that spend their lives around the ocean ,and spent their lives learning about it ,then you've got a lot to learn .

The wardens are great , but most of the board are not sportsman, most don't hunt or fish and I trust them as much as i trust gas station sushi


If you're acknowledging the complexity of managing our fisheries, maybe you should allow DFW a few missteps. Mistakes made in the past have them erring on the safe side with abalone. And as you point out, maybe they don't have great data.

The crux of the argument is that what you're calling gross mismanagement, I'm calling maintaining some of the healthiest fisheries in the world. I'm trying to look at the big picture here, and appreciate that DFW and our interests are mostly aligned most of the time. We need them and they need us. I'm not saying they always get it right, and I agree that more involvement in DFW from sportsmen and people who love spending time in the ocean (like us), the better. But that can't happen if our tribe decides to be diametrically opposed to the institution as a whole.
User avatar
apneanaut
spearo
 
Posts: 406
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Francisco

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby phil herranen » January 5th, 2018, 12:26 pm

apneanaut wrote:
phil herranen wrote:You are right management is very complex and dfg has a long track record of gross mismanagement. And the what they did was basically "we will do nothing and see how it plays out" this is a back room land grab plain and simple.

They haven't even done the surveys that they said they were going to do when they "temporarily " closed south of the gate . If you thing just because someone has a biology degree they know more that people that spend their lives around the ocean ,and spent their lives learning about it ,then you've got a lot to learn .

The wardens are great , but most of the board are not sportsman, most don't hunt or fish and I trust them as much as i trust gas station sushi


If you're acknowledging the complexity of managing our fisheries, maybe you should allow DFW a few missteps. Mistakes made in the past have them erring on the safe side with abalone. And as you point out, maybe they don't have great data.

The crux of the argument is that what you're calling gross mismanagement, I'm calling maintaining some of the healthiest fisheries in the world. I'm trying to look at the big picture here, and appreciate that DFW and our interests are mostly aligned most of the time. We need them and they need us. I'm not saying they always get it right, and I agree that more involvement in DFW from sportsmen and people who love spending time in the ocean (like us), the better. But that can't happen if our tribe decides to be diametrically opposed to the institution as a whole.

How about dam near every step ,

allow scuba and Comercial for abs in socal until one species is almost extinct ( white abs when the did something there were only 3 males in a aquarium, they have since found more )

Allow hoop nets and promar (traps) nets to decimate the lobster population

Almost no doe hunts in ca have made the deer population very unhealthy

No mountain lion hunting has further hurt the deer population

Allow pigs and turkeys and striped bass to have have a game classification and run rampant instead of the invasive classification they should have .

I could go on and on this is just one of many miss steps , on the path to no take in ca
User avatar
phil herranen
Herranen Spearguns
 
Posts: 836
Joined: July 2013
Location: santa cruz

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 5th, 2018, 4:39 pm

phil herranen wrote:How about dam near every step ,

allow scuba and Comercial for abs in socal until one species is almost extinct ( white abs when the did something there were only 3 males in a aquarium, they have since found more )

Allow hoop nets and promar (traps) nets to decimate the lobster population

Almost no doe hunts in ca have made the deer population very unhealthy

No mountain lion hunting has further hurt the deer population

Allow pigs and turkeys and striped bass to have have a game classification and run rampant instead of the invasive classification they should have .

I could go on and on this is just one of many miss steps , on the path to no take in ca

I'm not going to defend DFW's every action, but it's usually unfair to say "they should've known" with the benefit of hindsight.

I've never understood why some invasive animals are managed like game, but that's an example of DFW serving sportsmen over environmentalists, clearly not part of a "no take" agenda. To say we're "on the path to no take in ca" is an exaggeration.

When it comes to mountain lions, yeah this is still California. The general public just aren't going to be cool with hunting certain intelligent predators like lions, seals, and dolphins. You may be right about it being sustainable and in some cases even healthy for the ecosystem. But just imagine the public backlash.

Have you ever tried calling DFW? The times I have in the past, they've put me directly in touch with the biologist studying the species I'm calling about. They've answered my questions and listened to my concerns. It's made me realize that they are just people like us, passionate about wildlife, trying to find a balanced approach in some very complex work.
User avatar
apneanaut
spearo
 
Posts: 406
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Francisco

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby thereefgeek » January 5th, 2018, 5:16 pm

Glad I missed out on this whole debate.
Abs are great as long as I'm not the one that has to shuck & gut & pound & cut & bread & fry.
More than happy to partake of the bounty if you're the one doing all the work.
But honestly, I'm pretty much f'ing over the whole abalone thing.
I feel like the guys making the biggest stink over this closure thing are the guys who are just out looking to go out and grab a pretty shell to hang on the wall; not the guys who are diving to feed 10-15 of their closest friends with a 30 year old snail that measures 10+ inches across the widest part of the shell.
To each his own brother...
"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do.
Life's been good to me so far."

-Joe Walsh
User avatar
thereefgeek
polespearo
 
Posts: 23
Joined: April 2016
Location: too far inland

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Westbury » January 5th, 2018, 10:24 pm

apneanaut wrote:I'm late to the party but wanted to add my $0.02.

Matt Mattison and Phil Herranen are a couple of the most passionate and skilled divers in norcal, but they aren't marine biologists. Fisheries management is complex and it's important that we have professionals making these decisions. To suggest that these experts are simply pushing their politics is absurd. The proof is that anyone here could pursue a degree in marine biology, get a job at DFW, and eventually help make management decisions using the best available science. In fact I've never met someone employed by DFW who wasn't passionate about hunting or fishing - how else do you think they became so interested in that line of work? They are part of our tribe. And I say that with a couple DFW citations to my name.

To those who say "once closed we'll never get it back," consider that lingcod, king salmon, striped bass, canary rockfish, and cabezon have all seen limits increased, fisheries reopened, or legal sizes decreased in the past few years. We have healthy fisheries in California which are monitored, regulated and enforced. I've dived in places where that's not the case, and it makes me appreciate what we've got here.

It's OK to gripe about closures and be disappointed by DFW decisions - I'm disappointed that I won't be diving for abalone this year - but let's not lose sight of the important role they play in protecting our resources and our sport for future generations. We're on the same team.



Interesting that you say it would be absurd for the professionals to push a political agenda.
How can you say that with a straight face? Have you been keeping up with the news? It happens at the highest levels of our federal government.
Why can't it happen at the state level?
Let's take mountain lions as an example. The data shows that hunting MLs are good for the deer population, are sustainably able to be hunted and yet a decision maker within the DFW is not down with it because of the optics.
The data didn't mean squat to the decision maker.
See how that works?
Unfortunately, I don't trust the system.
User avatar
Westbury
kook
 
Posts: 668
Joined: July 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby ricduenas » January 5th, 2018, 10:59 pm

Westbury wrote:Let's take mountain lions as an example. The data shows that hunting MLs are good for the deer population, are sustainably able to be hunted and yet a decision maker within the DFW is not down with it because of the optics.
The data didn't mean squat to the decision maker.
See how that works?
Unfortunately, I don't trust the system.


Mountain lion hunting was banned via state initiative. DFW gets no say in whether mountain lions can be hunted. Removing the "specially protected" status of mountain lions would require voters to overturn the initiative.
User avatar
ricduenas
polespearo
 
Posts: 32
Joined: June 2015

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby NaClAddict » January 6th, 2018, 6:17 am

Ricduenas, What about the ban on lead hunting ammo in Cali? 100% DFW enacted. 0 scientific surveys showing any benefit. Hundreds of thousands of rifles that can’t be hunted with because of no availability of lead free ammo. Countless animals wasted due to poor ammo performance. Ranches that used to use lead are now using rodenticides which enter the food chain and poison animals for countless life cycles.

Seems like the state is just coming down on consumptive hunters of all types.

Apneanaut- no offense but science is fallible. I have been diving long enough in so cal to comfortably say withering foot was the abalone coffin nail. There were more than enough to sustain a population. That is until DFG sponsored an industry that poisoned the population.
NaClAddict
spearo
 
Posts: 355
Joined: August 2013

Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Bill McIntyre » January 6th, 2018, 8:49 am

I’m trying to refrain from commenting in this thread but I also want to understand what is being said. Please clarify. What industry did the DFG sponsor that poisoned the abs?
email me at wsbhtr@cox.net
User avatar
Bill McIntyre
billie mac
 
Posts: 3659
Joined: July 2013
Location: San Clemente, CA

Next

Return to California & Baja

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]