WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an end

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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 6th, 2018, 3:03 pm

Westbury wrote:Interesting that you say it would be absurd for the professionals to push a political agenda.
How can you say that with a straight face? Have you been keeping up with the news? It happens at the highest levels of our federal government.
Why can't it happen at the state level?
Let's take mountain lions as an example. The data shows that hunting MLs are good for the deer population, are sustainably able to be hunted and yet a decision maker within the DFW is not down with it because of the optics.
The data didn't mean squat to the decision maker.
See how that works?
Unfortunately, I don't trust the system.

I definitely hear you, but I'm trying to take a more productive perspective. I've spent a lot of time feeling angry and nihilistic about our politics in the past few years, and it feels good sometimes to be indignant, but it doesn't do much to improve the situation. What is the best approach to counter political corruption? Civic engagement. For example, if you believe money and special interests have corrupted our federal government, one solution is supporting politicians who want to reverse Citizens United, ending campaign donations by corporations. Those who would simply say "I don't trust the system" and disengage don't have a say and don't move the needle.

Can we at least agree that we need our fisheries to be managed with appropriate regulations and enforcement? If so, recognize that DFW is that institution. If it hadn't existed, we would be spearing fewer fish, not more. No one is going to "beat" DFW any more than we can overthrow the federal government. All we can do is get more involved, have better conversations and ideas, take a more diplomatic approach, and try to be more persuasive when the facts are in our favor. I agree with those who have said watermen like us have valuable knowledge and experience to share in this process. That's what I'm advocating. Or another way of putting it: if you can't beat them, join them.

The idea that people don't "trust" DFW has come up a few times. I'd encourage you to give them a call sometime and ask about mountain lions or lobster or abalone and see what they have to say. I've been impressed by the knowledge and expertise of the DFW scientists I've talked to. I've been humbled by the complexity of some of these situations and my own lack of understanding. A 5min phone call would have set you straight on the mountain lion situation, for example. If the only place you get your fisheries management information is your Facebook bubble and fishing forums, you're bound to have skewed views. We're living in the age of tribalism and the "us" versus "them" mentality. Try reaching out to "them" sometime and you might see that there's actually a lot of common ground and shared interests.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 6th, 2018, 3:08 pm

NaClAddict wrote:Apneanaut- no offense but science is fallible. I have been diving long enough in so cal to comfortably say withering foot was the abalone coffin nail. There were more than enough to sustain a population. That is until DFG sponsored an industry that poisoned the population.

I agree science is fallible, and as I've said before DFW has made it's missteps, but it's the best thing we've got. We need fisheries management, absolutely without a doubt. And who better to make these big decisions than those who have devoted their lives to studying the ocean in the most objective and scientifically rigorous terms.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 6th, 2018, 3:12 pm

Bill McIntyre wrote:I’m trying to refrain from commenting in this thread but I also want to understand what is being said. Please clarify. What industry did the DFG sponsor that poisoned the abs?

Maybe he's referring to abalone farms, which have released withering foot into the wild in the past: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854573/

The California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) can prohibit aquaculture discharge or place restrictions or requirements on aquaculture operations where it is determined aquaculture activities are detrimental to adjacent native wildlife.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 6th, 2018, 3:25 pm

Matt mattison wrote:a degree with out real world experience and involvement under water in the environment is a good as the toilet paper I wipe my ass with !

Agreed. How many marine biologists do you know? The ones I know are all divers. All of them. Hopefully people like us who love being in the ocean continue to get involved in the science and help make management decisions.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby ricduenas » January 6th, 2018, 8:10 pm

NaClAddict wrote:Ricduenas, What about the ban on lead hunting ammo in Cali? 100% DFW enacted. 0 scientific surveys showing any benefit. Hundreds of thousands of rifles that can’t be hunted with because of no availability of lead free ammo. Countless animals wasted due to poor ammo performance. Ranches that used to use lead are now using rodenticides which enter the food chain and poison animals for countless life cycles.


Again, as with the special protection on mountain lions, this is another example of a policy DFW was required to implement. In this case, it was a state assembly bill (see AB-711).
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Rob102 » January 7th, 2018, 1:07 pm

ricduenas wrote:
NaClAddict wrote:Ricduenas, What about the ban on lead hunting ammo in Cali? 100% DFW enacted. 0 scientific surveys showing any benefit. Hundreds of thousands of rifles that can’t be hunted with because of no availability of lead free ammo. Countless animals wasted due to poor ammo performance. Ranches that used to use lead are now using rodenticides which enter the food chain and poison animals for countless life cycles.


Again, as with the special protection on mountain lions, this is another example of a policy DFW was required to implement. In this case, it was a state assembly bill (see AB-711).


Rick, you are correct, the State banned the hunting of mountain lions. When DFG President Dan Richards legally killed a lion in Idaho it became a political witch-hunt driven by animal rights groups. 40 Democrat assembly members and lt. gov. Gavin Newsome sent letters to the governor calling for the termination of Richards because he didn’t uphold the values of the People of the State (animal rights groups and democratic assemblymen).

It’s obvious that political values are what governs the DFW. If you don’t toe the party line you’ll be drug through the mud and tossed out on your ass. These political agendas do not adhere to the best available science or the law unless these things fall in step with their ideology.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby NaClAddict » January 7th, 2018, 7:48 pm

apneanaut wrote:
Bill McIntyre wrote:I’m trying to refrain from commenting in this thread but I also want to understand what is being said. Please clarify. What industry did the DFG sponsor that poisoned the abs?

Maybe he's referring to abalone farms, which have released withering foot into the wild in the past: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854573/

The California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) can prohibit aquaculture discharge or place restrictions or requirements on aquaculture operations where it is determined aquaculture activities are detrimental to adjacent native wildlife.


DFG did more than license. They solicited aquaculture of abalone with hopes of using it to later replenish wild stock. DFG knew that stock abalone carried withering foot. They did zero research into how it was spread and assumed it wouldn’t spread to wild populations. It was irresponsible and knee jerk. All the scientists saw was one pipe dream to save a fishery that they had mismanaged, the biologists probably imagined themselves eco-heroes.

See any parallels?
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby NaClAddict » January 7th, 2018, 8:28 pm

apneanaut wrote:
NaClAddict wrote:Apneanaut- no offense but science is fallible. I have been diving long enough in so cal to comfortably say withering foot was the abalone coffin nail. There were more than enough to sustain a population. That is until DFG sponsored an industry that poisoned the population.

I agree science is fallible, and as I've said before DFW has made it's missteps, but it's the best thing we've got. We need fisheries management, absolutely without a doubt. And who better to make these big decisions than those who have devoted their lives to studying the ocean in the most objective and scientifically rigorous terms.


I see a total breakdown of the scientific method. Researchers define new problems and get paid to study them. This is the new scholarly machine. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. All anti sportsman legislature is backed by private corporations. It is the antithesis of democracy. Follow the money.

When it came to condors scientists lied about where lead came from. They doctored experiments to bolster the ban. Research was and is anything but objective. How can recreational fishing be so detrimental that it is banned in Marine Protected areas where commercial seine netting is allowed? Everyone with half a brain knows this is asinine. Somehow, scientists have produced data to the contrary. Could it be because without privately backed studies and eco agencies there would be far fewer scientists employed? Could it be that the learning institutions that produce scientists are also dependent on the same private money so they push research to forward the goals of their financial backers? This agenda is repeated over and over with new topics.

I’m not anti MPA, science, or conservation. It’s that these movements have seriously gone off the rails and California is leading the charge. DFW could have left some recreational abalone open while leaving a healthy stock. I have dove areas that have had mass die offs and still seen lots of abs while reading that those areas are now barren.

The most recent die offs were from natural causes. Banning consumptive intake has zero effect on that population loss. MPA’s alone would allow enough stock to maintain a population.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby John Hughes » January 7th, 2018, 9:32 pm

NaClAddict wrote:
apneanaut wrote:
NaClAddict wrote:Apneanaut- no offense but science is fallible. I have been diving long enough in so cal to comfortably say withering foot was the abalone coffin nail. There were more than enough to sustain a population. That is until DFG sponsored an industry that poisoned the population.

I agree science is fallible, and as I've said before DFW has made it's missteps, but it's the best thing we've got. We need fisheries management, absolutely without a doubt. And who better to make these big decisions than those who have devoted their lives to studying the ocean in the most objective and scientifically rigorous terms.


I see a total breakdown of the scientific method. Researchers define new problems and get paid to study them. This is the new scholarly machine. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. All anti sportsman legislature is backed by private corporations. It is the antithesis of democracy. Follow the money.

When it came to condors scientists lied about where lead came from. They doctored experiments to bolster the ban. Research was and is anything but objective. How can recreational fishing be so detrimental that it is banned in Marine Protected areas where commercial seine netting is allowed? Everyone with half a brain knows this is asinine. Somehow, scientists have produced data to the contrary. Could it be because without privately backed studies and eco agencies there would be far fewer scientists employed? Could it be that the learning institutions that produce scientists are also dependent on the same private money so they push research to forward the goals of their financial backers? This agenda is repeated over and over with new topics.

I’m not anti MPA, science, or conservation. It’s that these movements have seriously gone off the rails and California is leading the charge. DFW could have left some recreational abalone open while leaving a healthy stock. I have dove areas that have had mass die offs and still seen lots of abs while reading that those areas are now barren.

The most recent die offs were from natural causes. Banning consumptive intake has zero effect on that population loss. MPA’s alone would allow enough stock to maintain a population.


This is the best post I've seen in a while. Thank you. I've gone to a few of these eco discussions (under cover) where I've seen this new "scholarly machine" in full effect.

I am not anti MPA, science or conservation either just to put that up front. I believe our fisheries need to be managed and I also believe they used to be managed well by well intentioned people. Some of that may still be true to a certain extent. I also believe the process has been taken over by politics and big money and nothing proved that to me more than being involved in the MPA process.

To see how they used the bad science to their advantage of pushing their own agenda in that process broke my heart. We even went so far as to take some of the scientists and key players scuba diving to prove to them the areas they had backed up by their bad science was nowhere near as barren as they claimed it was. They freaked out seeing species that we see everyday insisting that those same specie were actually already extinct according to their "science." Their response after they got over their excitement was that they needed to close those areas as well to "protect" them. Then to see Swartzenazi fire the DFG commissioner the night before the ultimate vote because he was going to vote against it (it wouldn't have passed without his vote) just proved how political the agenda really was. Straight third world corruption. What a sham.
Last edited by John Hughes on January 8th, 2018, 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Trace » January 8th, 2018, 5:11 am

I have to agree with John 100%, well said.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby apneanaut » January 8th, 2018, 12:05 pm

John Hughes wrote:I am not anti MPA, science or conservation either just to put that up front. I believe our fisheries need to be managed and I also believe they used to be managed well by well intentioned people. Some of that may still be true to a certain extent.

I'm trying to get more of us to here. It's one thing to say DFW is influenced by politics, doesn't always listen to its scientists, considers biased science, or frequently makes mistakes. It's another to say we're on the path to no take, that there is a total breakdown of the scientific method, that once they take it we'll never get it back, or that they are trying to f*ck us over. Such extreme views don't serve our interests and are demonstrably untrue.

Fisheries management is an inherently political process. It's trying to find a balance that makes the most people the least unhappy. Science doesn't make the big decisions, it only informs them. In the end, people have to decide. Here in California, the politics seem to have us erring on the side of too many restrictions when there isn't always science to support them. By contrast in the Mediterranean, the politics have them maintaining extremely depleted fisheries against the overwhelming consensus of biologists, because commercial fishermen have been so effective at lobbying to fight management reform. I'd rather spearfish in California.

From a bird's eye view, I can understand how the MPAs made sense to a lot of people, biologists and politicians alike, even without proof that they were necessary or would work here in CA. I remember back in 2009 lamenting to a coworker that swaths of socal had just been closed to fishing as part of MPAs. His immediate response was something like "good, we need to protect the ocean." I disagreed with the MPA process, but I couldn't disagree with that sentiment.

There are a lot of people who think we're overfishing the worlds oceans, and it's true. But as we know the situation is much more nuanced than that. Some fisheries are overfished, others are healthy and well managed. The US in general and California in particular have some of the healthiest fisheries in the world, but a lot of folks only see headlines about overfishing around the world, the endangered bluefin, endangered abalone, etc. and think we need more closures and restrictions. They fail to recognize that the real marine conservation battles need to be fought in other countries, and that by restricting California fisheries, we're importing more seafood and supporting irresponsible fishing practices in other parts of the world.

I want to be part of a tribe that recognizes that these are nuanced situations and that most of the people involved have good intentions, whether or not they're always right. Then at least we have the common ground to have better discussions, be more persuasive, and push our politics in a sensible direction.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Erizo » January 8th, 2018, 2:41 pm

apneanaut wrote:I'm late to the party but wanted to add my $0.02.

...To suggest that these experts are simply pushing their politics is absurd. ..


Politics are a huge factor. The hard working scientist might not get to make decisions pressured by politics but their higher up sure do. DFG is a government agency, is it not? ...
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby NaClAddict » January 8th, 2018, 3:26 pm

apneanaut wrote:...It's another to say we're on the path to no take, that there is a total breakdown of the scientific method, that once they take it we'll never get it back, or that they are trying to f*ck us over. Such extreme views don't serve our interests and are demonstrably untrue ...


Look into the banning of lead ammo for condors. Scientists deleted data about where lead in condors actually came from. They conducted a study, what it proved was contradictory to what they were trying to prove; so the scientists fabricated data to support their claim. They then went on to fabricate an entire study of the dispersal of a lead bullet in a harvested animal to further vilify lead.

This is only one example. It took true scientists to debunk this propaganda. How many times have lies gone unnoticed? These studies were held as truth until they were debunked. What if there weren’t the resources to look into these studies? How many fake studies are now accepted as truth.

I went to an MPA presentation 6 months after the MPA’s were established, they claimed a 200% increase to in juvenile scallop and abalone populations. The report was 2 months old. The marine biologist presenting the info admitted she didn’t even think the study of 4 month old scallop and abalone was possible. I knew the study was propaganda. Total BS! Turned out the research had no baseline, initial population were presumed to be non-existent.

Couple this phenomenon with the persecution of true sportsmen on the Department of Fish and Whatever and its pretty clear to see the road we are going down. Google the names of the Fish and Wildlife commission, see what other associations they are affiliated with. They’re not sportsman’s associations, they are hardcore conservation organizations that do not support the take of wildlife. These key players are the golden children of DFW. They are placed in high profile, powerful positions. They dictate policy. Read articles about Sonke Mastrup’s resignation. The writing on the wall is clear.

So yeah I’m sticking to what I said. A total breakdown of the scientific method and a downward spiral to no take.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby mike n » January 8th, 2018, 7:48 pm

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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Breathlessagony » January 8th, 2018, 11:10 pm

If you think that California politicians and the DFW are not moving toward no take, you are fooling yourself. They have used junk science time and again to take away Californians’ state constitutional right to fish.

You only need to be a causal consumer of research to see the truth.

Incidentally, I am a biologist, and the DFW biologists are not part of your tribe.
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Matt mattison » January 9th, 2018, 1:07 pm

mike n wrote:Check around 1:20 and 2:00.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ge ... &FORM=VIRE

MN


LMFAO !! Not only one of the funniest guys but was so ahead of his time and is spot on with his observations and comments !!!! SO FITS IN CA LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL !!! HAHAHAHAHAHAA he should have ran for
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Re: WE GOT F#@%ED !!!! no more abalone diving in ca !!!! an

Postby Bill McIntyre » January 9th, 2018, 2:07 pm

Matt mattison wrote:
mike n wrote:Check around 1:20 and 2:00.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ge ... &FORM=VIRE

MN


LMFAO !! Not only one of the funniest guys but was so ahead of his time and is spot on with his observations and comments !!!! SO FITS IN CA LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL !!! HAHAHAHAHAHAA he should have ran for


He's funny as hell, but he's a comedian, not a scientist. He's right that the planet has survived long before we got here and will survive after we're gone, but I'm selfish. I want it to survive so that my species including my kids and grandkids will enjoy it the way I have. I want them to have fish and game to hunt, clean air to breath, clean water to drink, etc. He's right about species going extinct all the time, but I don't want my species to be among them very soon.

You guys bitching that we aren't listening to real science may have a point, but its not just a California problem. The great majority of climate scientists all over the world agree that climate is changing faster due to human activity. Profit seeking big businesses believe in climate change and are trying to prepare for it. But our government isn't listening. Our government scientists aren't even allowed to use the words "climate change" because it would piss off the big contributors from the coal and petroleum industries. So we're proposing drilling off California and rolling back the safety measures established after Deepwater Horizon. What could possibly go wrong? We didn't really have that big spill off Santa Barbara in 1969. Its all a fake news story told by those environmentalist weenies.

If the Federal government denies science, then California scientists protecting wildlife through an abundance of caution will be the least of our problems.
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