gun build halted questions about teak

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gun build halted questions about teak

Postby jacobhoke » November 15th, 2015, 9:30 pm

NTRODUCTION
Hey guys new to the site and fairly new to spearfishing so please forgive me on my ignorance on some of the subjects :confusion-shrug: I started spearfishing about 7 months ago after leaving the Marines it's been very therapeutic for me :greetings-clappingorange: I was pretty much addicted after my first catch......opaleye using a 7' polespear :D yea I know but hey got to start somewhere ....... One of my buddies parents gave me an old JBL to start off with I loved it compared to my pole spear but sadly the trigger mech continues to fail. And I need the to be back in the ocean ASAP XD

THE GUN
60" (152cm) TEAK double roller enclosed track speargun (considering making it a mid handlebecause of the size)

So iv moved onto building my own after doing a bit of math it was definitely the cheaper route thanks to ebay, neptonics, and the guys at spear america I was able to aquire all the parts I needed except the teak wood here's where things kind of get sticky for me as I'm no carpenter and have no experience with wood working but I do have a friend with a machine shop and I know how to work CAD. How hard could it be to machine a piece of wood I mean I did it with steel in high school haha then I started research and boy was i wrong :eek:

MAIN PROBLEM
warping and how to prevent it the best i could come up with was that I will use a single piece of straight grain bermese heart wood teak about 2"x3"x60" kiln dried heartwood teak took forever to find someone who had a planed,squared, and sanded piece :nuts: but I have yet to order it because I'm not sure how it will handle if it is submerged (warping,swelling, will it hold shap) or if I should use oil or laminate the teak does anyone have any advise on if this will work.


I plan on going to mori's shop on Wednesday i met him at the party and he told me to come to his shop. I hope he may be able to build a blank and I assemble the gun but I have no idea the price I would be looking at to do so after all the plan was to keep it fairly cheap :/

If I do it myself I will also have to Ballast and figure out how to sight in the gun.......I'll have more information by Wednesday but any advise or information on the avoiding warping, how to balast, and sight In a double roller would be appreciated at this point :bow-blue:

PARTS LIST
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A few parts from neptonics
Also the rollers,bearings, and omar reel where from spear america the slip tip is a JBL tricut breakaway
Really excited about the finished gun not sure if the JBL tricut slip tip was the best tip for the gun but I'm sure the power I will get from the double rollers should be enough to propel it just fine
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby phil herranen » November 15th, 2015, 10:08 pm

i dont know where to start

first , you have chosen one of the hardest guns styles to get right

a 5/16 shaft is too light for correctly set up double roller , a 11/32 or 3/8 shaft would be better suited , also a roller never need a enclosed track

a real isnt very ez to fit on a double roller , there is a very high risk of line fouling and tangles

rollers that long can be very difficult or impossible to load unless they are made just right . to load it at full power it will really need to be 2 stage


personally if i was you i would start with a smaller single roller , or a conventional gun then move up in difficulty

see what mori has to say when you go by his place
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Bill McIntyre » November 16th, 2015, 7:59 am

Welcome aboard Jacob. I enjoyed talking to you at the party, even if I kept calling you the wrong name. I had new-name overload.

You sure came to the right place. Advice from Mori and Phil is about at good as it gets.

I've never built a gun and don't intend to. I'm sure I'd end up with nothing but a bunch of teak chips. But for what its worth, I think you should stick to a conventional gun, particularly if its going to be a 60" gun. I'm constantly reading about guys struggling to get roller guns right, and a 60" conventional gun with enough mass to handle 3 or 4 16 mm bands is all you need for the vast majority of California hunting. I think the main value of a roller gun is to give a short gun the range of a long gun. With a 60" conventional gun, you have all the range you need without the complexity of a roller gun.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Behslayer » November 16th, 2015, 8:06 am

I'm doing the math here. Not sure what WSB is valued at per lb. We can sell Wahoo here at $8lb. We don't because it is such good eating it all gets saved for friends and family, but let's use Wahoo as an example. I got a picture from a buddy the other day who shot a 90lb Wahoo using a gun I built for him. He said it was a Long Shot. That's a $700 fish. The gun cost him $850 complete including the Reel and Line. It's not the first and should not be the last which he shoots with the Gun he bought. I know of people who have guns I've built which have landed 5000lbs of good fish. There's a lot of things in life we buy which do not pay for themselves. A good speargun in the hands of someone who uses it regularly should pay for itself quickly. You have chosen a very difficult gun to design and build for your first build. I would save your Rollers and even the Enclosed Track for your second build. Make a 150cm MH Open track with 3 Bands.

This being said ofcourse, I'll help with any build advice I can give.

If it were me, I'd Bookmatch the laminates. This photo illustrates what I'm talking about. You can also do some research on Bookmatching.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby jacobhoke » November 19th, 2015, 11:04 pm

Thanks bill :obscene-drinkingcheers:
sorry for the late reply guys it's been a hectic week. Talked to mori and Woody at the shop sadly my wishlist just grew ten fold after visiting Hahaha. However, im still fighting the idea of what to build but I do know one thing a 67" 5/16 shaft is to small for the application I had in mind as bill stated but im already $80 in the hole with it so no turning back now and Behslayer I wondered what that was called that helps alot with the research. And the esthetics XD as I'm the only one who eats the fish in my house I think I may end up with alot for sale I just enjoy being in the water and the hunt. So i may post a bit about that it's good to know I won't be the only one to eat all that meat (not complaining though haha) I think a may take a crack at conventional gun first and save the rollers possibly for a smaller reef gun. I felt I messed up after seeing some of the work mori does his tracks are amazing and if I would have known better I would have tried his way first befor wasting the cash on the UHM track most likely going to buy the teak from mori I love how symmetrical the grain is on both side after he splits the wood
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Big_Berg » November 22nd, 2015, 7:48 am

Careful, it's illegal to sell sport caught fish without a commercial license (which are hard to get and very expensive).
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Behslayer » November 22nd, 2015, 8:29 am

My example of value of fish was from a commercial viewpoint. Many of us do have or do fish off of boats which do have commercial permits. But we can look at this from a value of consumer. Wahoo for example if you look up current market value for Wahoo or White Sea Bass, they are both around $24/lb for fillet. Imagine that. If you have a family of four, and plan for them to eat fish once per week, and they were not big eaters.. you would need 100lbs of fillet. I'm not trying to get off topic. Just pointing out that unlike a 6$ Latte, a good speargun in good hands pays for itself over and over. But Big_Berg is making a very important comment. Selling fish without the right permits is risky business. There are good reasons for this. Here is RI, we cannot sell direct to stores, restaurants, we sell to licensed fish brokers. Those fish brokers are inundated with regulations regarding the handling, storing, processing, reporting, etc of the fish they buy. They give us a check and we need to pay taxes on that. We also need to conform to alllllll of the Federal and State regs required of a commercial vessel. Gumby suits, etc. I have had buddies get busted for selling fish directly to restaurants. Even though the owner of the restaurant was their family.. $12K in fines. ughhh
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Big_Berg » November 22nd, 2015, 10:51 am

Behslayer wrote:My example of value of fish was from a commercial viewpoint. Many of us do have or do fish off of boats which do have commercial permits. But we can look at this from a value of consumer. Wahoo for example if you look up current market value for Wahoo or White Sea Bass, they are both around $24/lb for fillet. Imagine that. If you have a family of four, and plan for them to eat fish once per week, and they were not big eaters.. you would need 100lbs of fillet. I'm not trying to get off topic. Just pointing out that unlike a 6$ Latte, a good speargun in good hands pays for itself over and over. But Big_Berg is making a very important comment. Selling fish without the right permits is risky business. There are good reasons for this. Here is RI, we cannot sell direct to stores, restaurants, we sell to licensed fish brokers. Those fish brokers are inundated with regulations regarding the handling, storing, processing, reporting, etc of the fish they buy. They give us a check and we need to pay taxes on that. We also need to conform to alllllll of the Federal and State regs required of a commercial vessel. Gumby suits, etc. I have had buddies get busted for selling fish directly to restaurants. Even though the owner of the restaurant was their family.. $12K in fines. ughhh


I wasn't aiming that at you. You have waaaaay more experience than I could dream of. I don't want you to think I was trying to be a know it all brat. Just wanted to make sure the OP knew as he mentioned something about selling.

I like the way you look at valuing the meat, as I do the same thing. My family does not buy meat at the store.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Behslayer » November 22nd, 2015, 1:20 pm

Berg, you are 100% right to bring up the legalities. One thing a lot of us do which is Perfectly legal without any licenses etc. is trade. We often trade what we catch or grow to others for what they catch or grow. If you live near a farm those are great people to get into relationships with. Out here it's good to have a trade off if you are a fisherman, with someone else who is a Hunter.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby phil herranen » November 22nd, 2015, 1:34 pm

Behslayer wrote:Berg, you are 100% right to bring up the legalities. One thing a lot of us do which is Perfectly legal without any licenses etc. is trade. We often trade what we catch or grow to others for what they catch or grow. If you live near a farm those are great people to get into relationships with. Out here it's good to have a trade off if you are a fisherman, with someone else who is a Hunter.

In ca and many other states it in NOT legal to trade or barter any wild caught game .
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby jacobhoke » November 22nd, 2015, 2:39 pm

Big_Berg wrote:Careful, it's illegal to sell sport caught fish without a commercial license (which are hard to get and very expensive).

Thanks man I will be legal and not do that then thank you for the heads up but in terms of meat it vs what I would buy it for at the store even then the gun is a smart investment
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Bill McIntyre » November 22nd, 2015, 6:10 pm

Unless you are a hell of a lot better than most of us, don't kid yourself about a gun being a good investment. Add up all you spend on equipment and it's a lot cheaper to buy fish at the market.

Of course owning a boat makes it far worse, but a few years ago I calculated how much I spent per pound of fish. It was so shocking that I never did it again.

I bet that even the guys who just help with a share of my gas would come to the same conclusion.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby phil herranen » November 22nd, 2015, 7:21 pm

Bill McIntyre wrote:Unless you are a hell of a lot better than most of us, don't kid yourself about a gun being a good investment. Add up all you spend on equipment and it's a lot cheaper to buy fish at the market.

Of course owning a boat makes it far worse, but a few years ago I calculated how much I spent per pound of fish. It was so shocking that I never did it again.

I bet that even the guys who just help with a share of my gas would come to the same conclusion.

Bill you know none of us figure in what things realy cost or we would never be able to validate it with our wives, I bet if I figured in everything I spend to go dive Inc Gas , gear , boat rides ,food , everything , I bet it would add up to around 30k a year . Let us keep thinking that we are coming out ahead because we get a few hundred pounds of fish a year
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Mahtzo Lou » November 27th, 2015, 1:02 pm

I think it is best not to think of the costs of spearfishing in terms of a fincnacial investment or getting our money's worth based upon the amount of fish that we kill. You said you were hooked and it is good therapy. That should be enough. The value that we all get out of diving and spearfishing is best measured by the enjoyment, stress relief and other benefits. The fresh fish, lobster and other seafood is just a bonus. The last time I went diving I spent a whole day (0300-2200), spent approx $50 and got two lobster. Was it worth it? Hell yeah it was worth it. We were the only ones out, the water was beautiful and I spent the day with a good friend. If I was looking at it from a financial point of view, I would have been severely disappointed.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby chris oak » November 27th, 2015, 1:13 pm

Bill McIntyre wrote:
Of course owning a boat makes it far worse, but a few years ago I calculated how much I spent per pound of fish. It was so shocking that I never did it again.


lol I almost spit out my drink reading that one. I had to explain in to one of my coworkers, he said "do you get enough fish to offset the cost of the trip?"

I told him "HELL NO" not even close. But being out on the boat is one of my most favorite things to do ever. I told him my buddies pay 200$ to golf at nice places, they sure aren't getting 200 bucks of food, it's just one of those things that you pay to do.

My wife never asks me what I spend which is good because I'd hate to have to leave her :madrun: .
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Mahtzo Lou » November 27th, 2015, 1:35 pm

To get back on topic...I think that as a young diver, and as a first time gun builder you might want to consider a few things. I apologize if you already know all or some of these things:

1. A 60in gun is a good size for WSB and YT. A roller gun increases the effective size even more.
2. a 60in gun isn't the best size for reef hunting. it's too unweildy and the increased power makes shooting in and around rocks problematic.
3. Generally the longer the gun the greater power and range. (shaft diameter also affects stopping power especially at range)
4. Dirty water requires less range, blue water requires more range. (Do you mostly shore dive in the kelp or dive off a boat)
5. Guns with longer range can lead to shooting rocks (and ruining expensive tips) in dirty water and or be dangerous if there are other divers in dirty water.
6. Longer guns are significantly more difficult to maneuver through heavy kelp.

The above are just a few of the considerations that you should be making. Ideally, you will eventually want at least two (maybe three guns) at minimum. One that is best suited for reef hunting and one that is best suited for game fish (wsb and yt). I would say that the reef gun category would be somewhere in the 40-50in range and the game gun would be in the 50-72 range. the game guns, in addition to having more length, would also be more massive. Game guns might generally be categorized as dirty water guns (50-60?), blue water guns (60-70?) and tuna guns (greater than 70).

Personally, I would start with a shorter gun that will have more flexibility. I would start with either a reef gun or a dirty water gun. The other alternative would be to buy a euro (or build a reef gun) and build a blue water gun. I know that money may be an issue, but you can probably find a decent euogun used. (two advantages to buying a eurogun now: 1. you can get back in the water sooner. 2. you have a few months to build your game gun before wsb season.

Lastly: Pay very close attention to what Phil, Mori and Behslayer say about building guns and the difficulties of building a long enclosed track roller gun for your first gun.They KNOW what they are talking about.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby jacobhoke » December 8th, 2015, 6:30 pm

Mahtzo Lou wrote:I think it is best not to think of the costs of spearfishing in terms of a fincnacial investment or getting our money's worth based upon the amount of fish that we kill. You said you were hooked and it is good therapy. That should be enough. The value that we all get out of diving and spearfishing is best measured by the enjoyment, stress relief and other benefits. The fresh fish, lobster and other seafood is just a bonus. The last time I went diving I spent a whole day (0300-2200), spent approx $50 and got two lobster. Was it worth it? Hell yeah it was worth it. We were the only ones out, the water was beautiful and I spent the day with a good friend. If I was looking at it from a financial point of view, I would have been severely disappointed.



Completely agree I'm definitely not looking at it from a financial point of view just tried to reason with my self why I was spending so much but like a good friend said at least I only have to buy the gear once
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby jacobhoke » December 8th, 2015, 6:42 pm

#1 no trading of game caught go to go lmao I'm all about being legal

# 2 I'm planning on building the roller gun and here's why if I mess it up (which I probably will) I can cut off the end and make a decent sized conventional closed track gun nothing is ever gained by not doing anything even if it's just wisdom learned.....that being said the build was taking to long so I did in fact buy a new trigger mech and handle for the JBL so now I have a reef gun and soon hopefully an open water gun.

Just to state for the books
I think everyone is correct about building a conventional gun but hey I'm also all about doing things a bit different although the main concern is the over all size of the roller is just ridiculous
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Bill McIntyre » December 8th, 2015, 7:19 pm

jacobhoke wrote:
Mahtzo Lou wrote:I think it is best not to think of the costs of spearfishing in terms of a fincnacial investment or getting our money's worth based upon the amount of fish that we kill. You said you were hooked and it is good therapy. That should be enough. The value that we all get out of diving and spearfishing is best measured by the enjoyment, stress relief and other benefits. The fresh fish, lobster and other seafood is just a bonus. The last time I went diving I spent a whole day (0300-2200), spent approx $50 and got two lobster. Was it worth it? Hell yeah it was worth it. We were the only ones out, the water was beautiful and I spent the day with a good friend. If I was looking at it from a financial point of view, I would have been severely disappointed.



Completely agree I'm definitely not looking at it from a financial point of view just tried to reason with my self why I was spending so much but like a good friend said at least I only have to buy the gear once


Your friend lied. You are always going to need to buy more gear. :)

I'm about to turn 77, and I need more gear.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby jacobhoke » December 8th, 2015, 7:39 pm

Hahaha it's a never ending battle next I'll Want my own boat.....
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Donzi Paul » December 8th, 2015, 8:30 pm

[quote="Bill McIntyre"
I'm about to turn 77, and I need more gear.[/quote]

Flecken A mate :obscene-drinkingcheers: That's the spirit. I hope my bride has to open a UPS box with a new pair of fins, while you fine men are spreading my ash's off Moss Point. :bowrofl:

Cheers, Don
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Bill McIntyre » December 8th, 2015, 9:21 pm

jacobhoke wrote:Hahaha it's a never ending battle next I'll Want my own boat.....


Of course you will.

I recall that after Nancy I were married and living in Hawaii in the early 60s, we would look at 16' 7" Boston Whalers and think that we would be in heaven if we ever had one of those.

We got one of those when I was stationed in Texas in 1968. It was a great boat, but then later when we were at Cherry Pt., NC we really needed something bigger to get out to the Gulf Stream.

I'll have mercy and stop there until you have time to catch up. :)
Last edited by Bill McIntyre on December 8th, 2015, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Bill McIntyre » December 8th, 2015, 9:23 pm

Donzi Paul wrote:[quote="Bill McIntyre"
I'm about to turn 77, and I need more gear.


Flecken A mate :obscene-drinkingcheers: That's the spirit. I hope my bride has to open a UPS box with a new pair of fins, while you fine men are spreading my ash's off Moss Point. :bowrofl:

Cheers, Don[/quote]

I'd be honored Don, but I think its more likely that you'll be spreading mine off Dana Point.
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Re: gun build halted questions about teak

Postby Mahtzo Lou » December 9th, 2015, 8:41 pm

jacobhoke wrote:
Mahtzo Lou wrote:I think it is best not to think of the costs of spearfishing in terms of a fincnacial investment or getting our money's worth based upon the amount of fish that we kill. You said you were hooked and it is good therapy. That should be enough. The value that we all get out of diving and spearfishing is best measured by the enjoyment, stress relief and other benefits. The fresh fish, lobster and other seafood is just a bonus. The last time I went diving I spent a whole day (0300-2200), spent approx $50 and got two lobster. Was it worth it? Hell yeah it was worth it. We were the only ones out, the water was beautiful and I spent the day with a good friend. If I was looking at it from a financial point of view, I would have been severely disappointed.



Completely agree I'm definitely not looking at it from a financial point of view just tried to reason with my self why I was spending so much but like a good friend said at least I only have to buy the gear once


You will only have to buy THAT gear once. The next gun you will only have to buy once also...
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