Whats NEW with Rollers?

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Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby Behslayer » March 23rd, 2019, 11:15 am

Any new Pool Testing out there?

Double Rollers?

Inverted Rollers?

I was looking back on a thread from just a year or so ago and reading things like

'Double Rollers or Inverted Rollers cannot outperform a well designed classic gun"

Is that still where we are at?

Makes me miss our old friend SEAL. If he was still with us, imagine the creations and pool testing he would have shared with us during the past year.

Anyone out there have any new testing they would share? Most interested in longer Double Rollers and Inverted i.e. 125+ band stretch (@145cm+total length) Double Rollers and Inverted shooting thicker shafts.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby Kirby » March 29th, 2019, 8:26 pm

I just bought a Rob Allen 90 roller. I like it for the range and portability, but it sinks with the shaft out which really, really disappoints me.

That’s all I got.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby Behslayer » March 30th, 2019, 11:25 am

Thanks Kirby, hope you are getting in some good bluewater diving. Surprising that nobody is interested in Rollers anymore.. Dang I'd like to see some video of some of the Bigger Rollers in the pool.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby hydroid » April 1st, 2019, 11:52 pm

I don't know that much about Rollers but just thought I would contribute to the post. Awhile back I saw a video with Peter Correale (Red Tide I think) and I think he was shooting an Alemanni and man was that gun deadly. Nicest looking Roller I've ever laid my eyes on.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby Behslayer » April 2nd, 2019, 10:41 am

Pete has spent a bunch of time in the Ulusub Workshops. He brought by his Alemannis and left them with me for a few days. Those things were Gorgeous. I couldn't put them down. The finest craftsmanship I've seen on a Speargun. Still have no idea about half the things I was looking at. Itio Alemanni has posted a few Pool Testing Videos, but nothing new for years?

Where the new stuff at?
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby kon » April 2nd, 2019, 12:28 pm

hydroid wrote:I don't know that much about Rollers but just thought I would contribute to the post. Awhile back I saw a video with Peter Correale (Red Tide I think) and I think he was shooting an Alemanni and man was that gun deadly. Nicest looking Roller I've ever laid my eyes on.


+1 my Carbon Stilo Express 115 Double Roller is and will probably continue to be my go to gun for the foreseeable future. After trying many different guns across a few brands, this is by far the most effective and accurate gun for me.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » April 26th, 2019, 11:52 pm

As a Stilo Express owner can you give us any information on the link (circled) in the central band group? On the outer composite band groups a link is used to connect an extra band so there are three bands anchored in all, with the outer band groups having two ends on each side to make use of the three rear anchor points on the gun.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby kon » April 27th, 2019, 10:22 am

I'm not sure what their intention is with the inner group there. It makes sense for them to need the link on the outer group, but not so much on the inner group. My guess is that maybe having the link results in less stress and more lifetime on the bands, and possibly makes it easier to load?
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby Behslayer » April 27th, 2019, 11:21 am

Hello Pete,

The forward Sections of the bands (the ones which go around the rollers and then are on top of the gun when loaded are different from the Rear Sections (which remain on the bottom of the gun)

The Forward Sections are smaller diameter (to allow them to go around the rollers easier), Regular ID which allows a thin Holowcore Dyneema line to run through the bands so the Forward section can be set at low stretch i.e. 300%., and the regular ID and Hollowcore makes the band less stiff than a Small ID band as it goes around the roller so it's less likely to cause Muzzle climb.

The Rear Sections of Rubber are Thicker Diameter and Small ID creating an Inversion of power. i.e. More mass/power pulling backwards than forwards. They are Pretentsioned when using the gun. The gun will require being loaded with a Load assist. The second Band Section on the Outer Band applies more power to help get over the initial hump and get the shaft moving. Otherwise a Kicker band on top could be used.

I may be wrong about all of this but that is my understanding.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » April 27th, 2019, 11:39 pm

Well I think that I have the answer. Alemanni want the nose end of the gun to be as streamlined as possible, so they want the bands to be small when stretched out in the forward area on the gun. They have not done that on their other double roller as you can see here.
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However the clue to the reason for the link and narrowed front bands is given here. The "trunk" is the barrel.
Image
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » April 27th, 2019, 11:54 pm

Kosta (Seal) used a big rear roller on his gun to incline the run of the stretched bands as they reached forward to the muzzle rollers. That way he had room to bury his bands in a long inclined travel slot under the forward barrel of his gun which was a cable rollergun, so no bands running on the top deck. There were recessed bands on the top deck because he used the top of the gun for the band anchor as you can see on the diagrams.
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Seal's gun is the bottom diagram of this schematic group.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » April 28th, 2019, 12:14 pm

A rubber band is basically a long cylinder with a certain volume of rubber. The amount of material stays the same when we stretch it out, therefore an increase in length by say a factor of 4, which is a 300% elongation, means that the cross-sectional area is reduced by a quarter. Area equals pi times radius squared which means the radius of the band is halved when stretched to four times its original length. Area A/4 = (pi x R^2)/4 = pi x (R/2)^2. Thus a 16 mm band will thin down to 8 mm at 300% elongation. This calculation neglects the hole through the center of the band, but we could do the same calculation for a tube.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby hydroid » May 8th, 2019, 12:29 am

The one thing that concerns me about rollers is how often does that rubber need to be changed, does it come in a kit or do-it-your self? I use my conventional gun every weekend and I change my bands maybe every 6 months or less. This could be a pain on the roller. I've also looked at some of those other European roller gun builders like Seawolf or Budak with beautiful designs similar to the Alemanni but you don't see many pics or videos of sizable bluewater fish being taken, mostly smaller fish in that Mediterranean area. Not the case with Alemanni.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby kon » May 8th, 2019, 7:29 am

Alemanni recommends buying premade bands directly from them, and I've read others say that the bands they tried making themselves weren't as effective. I always made my own bands before, but I only take a handful of trips a year, so I order backup sets from Alemanni and each set lasts me a long time. I think I'm at 1.5 years and maybe 8 trips on the original band set, and that set is just starting to shown signs of wear. Also, because the bands are inverted and broken down into multiple band groups, I may be wrong but I believe that reduces the overall pressure and wear on each individual band.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » May 8th, 2019, 3:06 pm

Many rollerguns have their bands under tension when fitted on the gun and before you even cock the gun. Rubber under tension is attacked by oxygen in the air, so in order to prolong the life of bands this tension needs to be removed when the gun is not being used. You can see an example of this attack on most speargun bands where you get a crack running around where the wishbones are tied into the bands as this squeezed down rubber is always under tension. Nothing that you can do about it, although keeping the bands in an air-tight container can prolong their life, however from new oxygen is being absorbed into the rubber unless it has a protective coating to slow the process. Antioxidants can be added into rubber compounds, but this is something more commonly done with automotive rubber products such as seals, hoses and tires. Sunlight also degrades rubber, hence bands should be stored out of direct sunlight even when left on the gun and more so with rollerguns when the bands are curved around the muzzle rollers.

On Seal's (Kosta) rollergun he had a pin that could be pulled out which anchored the bands on the gun, hence with this disengaged the bands could be allowed to fully relax or even be removed.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby castronova » May 13th, 2019, 4:47 am

Kon has given me a ton of info on the Alemanni's but I too would like to see them tested next to other traditional guns. Every 6 months or so I go look at the Alemanni site, I just love those guns. Although, I can't see spending that coin without knowing really what I'd be getting. No doubt those that use them love them.

I've also heard other inverted rollergun users who love the gun with the original bands, then they change the set and it never shoots the same again. Someone particular used a very expensive roller for a year or so then changed the bands and it was so different that it has sat there for multiple years now because he can't get it to shoot the same. It seems very important to go to the manufacturer for bands for these more complex guns.

I wish Alemanni made more videos too. G in Tahiti posts kill shots on his instagram page and the accuracy sure seems impressive.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » May 13th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Might be worth buying a spare band set with an Alemanni rollergun and when time comes to replacing them dissecting the originals to see "what makes them tick".
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby kon » May 14th, 2019, 8:53 pm

I just ordered a second backup set from Alemanni in preparation for replacing my original set later this summer. Pete, if you want, I can mail you my original set after I replace it.
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby Behslayer » May 15th, 2019, 9:28 am

My friends who have Alemanni's said they always buy replacement band package from Alemanni rather than try to make up their own bands.

Nobody on here has tried the Carbonia Spearguns?
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Re: Whats NEW with Rollers?

Postby popgun pete » May 16th, 2019, 10:32 pm

kon wrote:I just ordered a second backup set from Alemanni in preparation for replacing my original set later this summer. Pete, if you want, I can mail you my original set after I replace it.

Thanks for the kind offer, but may I suggest that if they have had it then slice the wishbone ties/constrictor knots with some side cutters and pull the knots or beads out of the hollow bands and check all the inner cord lengths. With all the necking down band ties cut you can then create a diagram or map of the bands in terms of lengths and connections along with the band diameters in each length. That way if for some reason you cannot get OE Alemanni bands then you can always have a set made up. I don't know the rubber band supplier that Alemanni uses, but Primeline rubber should do. When you are on a trip it is always worth having spare bands as one accidental nick and a band strand has had it, or you will have to bring your spare gun into action.
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