2mm spectra as shooting line?

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2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Adam Sachs » May 11th, 2015, 2:25 pm

Since I don't enjoy crimping and have had good success rigging with Q Power Line in the past (although I didn't want to buy a spool), I bought some 2mm 1000lb spectra from Neptonics to use as shooting line on my new 62" mid handle.

Just curious if anyone else rigs 2mm spectra on their guns and if so what knots do you recommend to maximize strength and minimize slipping.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Kwtony » May 11th, 2015, 4:32 pm

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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby AJP » May 12th, 2015, 11:33 am

I guess the major problem with running Spectra for the shooting line are the tangles that result quite easily. I've never tried it, but this is what I hear about happening to guys that have tried it. Maybe it is not as bad for a single-wrap as it is for a double-wrap setup though.

Best to test it out before going on a trip, no?
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Kwtony » May 12th, 2015, 12:19 pm

I personally prefer single, for a few reasons....

After watching a lot of double wrap video, I found that 99.9% of guns shooting a double wrap will almost always see a loop of line floating static in the bands after the gun fires. The second the spear penetrates a fish and he takes off, the line USUALLY threads itself through without an issue....I started throwing/pushing my gun behind me after shooting so I could reduce the mess of line, especially if i was shooting in hole or the fish was close, this helped quite a bit, but was only a temp fix to a permanent issue, once i switched to a single, I have yet to have a tangle. This is mostly on rail guns two banded shooters. Once you get into the (maaybe)3rd and 4th band, you'll probably want to set up a double. To avoid bounce backs or even snapping the shooting line. What kind of 62 Mid handle do you have , and how is it set up?

Most guns don't have the ability to shoot and penetrate a fish at the end of a second wrap, and it gave me a certain false confidence. Not penetrating fish can lead to more tear offs and injured fish. Many guns are setup from the factory that way, so many people use double wraps not because that's what they prefer, but that's all they know.

In my experience, singles are much easier to load and reduces the chances of getting a tangle. This is just me tho, your experience may be different.


Ive asked a bunch of different people what they prefer, and the general consensus is single for dirty water, double for clear water.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Adam Sachs » May 12th, 2015, 1:30 pm

Thanks for the info, Tony. I hadn't thought about tangles in the bands, and while I've never had an issue with my other gun I'm a little nervous that it might happen.

Kwtony wrote:What kind of 62 Mid handle do you have , and how is it set up?
.


The gun was made by Mike Novotny- it's a deep open-track with 3 9/16" bands, a double wrap of mono, and it's set up for breakaway.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby 32juan » May 12th, 2015, 3:27 pm

If strength is your primary concern, splicing the line is the way to go. Depending on the type of braid, it can be pretty simple, or really difficult. If the line is their hollow core stuff, just use a FID and do a "long bury splice" http://www.animatedknots.com/longbury/. You don't really need to taper the ends like in the first couple slides, just tuck it in far enough. To be safe, you can even do a locking stitch with some nylon line.

That will be the strongest, cleanest way to attach it. Knots really decrease the strength of a line. Sometimes by up to 50%. However, you will almost never get to the breaking limit of that 1000lb stuff, hell you probably won't ever get to a quarter of it's breaking strength.
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2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Kwtony » May 12th, 2015, 3:47 pm

I bet that gun is a beaut!!!

With my personal findings and experiments some 3 banded guns are just at that mid way point where they are capable of firing past the first wrap and into the second, it really takes a finely tuned gun in order to stick a spear deep enough and toggle the flopper. Mainly a gun focused on maximum band stretch as well as properly a balanced gun, much like yours :)

Another thing to consider is that not all line is created equally Some absorbs water differently, some are a little stiffer then others. Other variations include buoyancy and thickness. I know we are talking about 2mm line, but this is for all thicknesses. You want to avoid a line that flat out sinks, and one that is stiff enough to keep from bunching up in a ball when lose. Ideally, you want to find a line that is not too stiff to where it effects shaft flight. If your spear is using all its energy to pull a heavy super stiff cord, you might not have the penetration at double wrap range even if you have the power behind it.

I used mono with great results over the years, I have always been very prudent to change out line immediately after any real fraying occurred, and sometimes I would do it after every time I dove. I may miss a fish because my shot was poo poo or it got bitten off, but it is very rare that I loose a fish due to gear failure.

Right now I am experimenting with some of Rob Allens Antline. It is fairly expensive at a dollar a foot, but I bought enough to string up my 140 and my 160 rail guns. Even with a single wrap on my 140, from the tip of the spear to the tip of the gun is 20 feet, add 5 more feet for the actual gun itself and you are talking about 25 foot of length from hand to the tip of the gun. This is all not even factoring in my arm length... now were talking about almost 28 feet total...how much further does one really need?? I dont even have a measuring tape long enough right now to measure my 160cm gun with a single wrap, but when i bought my first 160 it had a double wrap and well over 30 feet of mono on it, no way Id ever be able/crazy enough to take a shot that long.

I can already tell this antline its a nice stiff and robust line and wont have to worry about it slowing the shaft down too much. It Is pretty abrasive so we will have to see how that works. They have been taking big pelagics all over the world with it so there has to be something good about it. We have a fair amount of jew fish and sharks in the deep blue, since these are mostly deep reef/blue water guns. I wanted to minimize my chances of a break off.

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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Adam Sachs » May 12th, 2015, 4:25 pm

I watched the RA video and just re rigged the gun with the new line. Another thing I hadn't considered is how much more abrasive it feels than mono when I run my fingers over it.

Makes me a little nervous about how it might saw through a fish on a marginal shot. Good thing I stone all my fish. B)

Think I'm going to do some testing this weekend and see about any tangling issues. I've also got mono and crimps in case it doesn't work out.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby John Hughes » May 12th, 2015, 5:38 pm

A few things about using spectra for your shooting line especially if it is abrasive. You will get more band tangles for sure. My buddy proved this multiple times over the course of a year and you can take my word for it or you can have your own near death experiences. Seriously.

The problem he had and that we have out here hunting fish like seabass is that sometimes you shoot fish within a few feet of your gun. When this happens all the shooting line be it spectra or mono just fluffls forward onto the bands. I think he even had a video or two that showed this. The mono is slippery enough to slide free when that fish takes off. Spectra on the other hand has a tendancy to knot up and catch on things. I took his word for it as he told me stories with fear in his eyes.

If you are going to use it, I'm a fan of the figure 8 knot as with certain lines (usually the more non abrasive stuff like Q line) the knots will slip when using knots like the bowline. Also, like Dustan said many knots will reduce the overall strength of your line. The bowline knot immediately reduces your strength to 67% and some much more.

just my 2 cents
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby castronova » May 13th, 2015, 6:54 am

The rigidity of the line is directly proportional to how much it will tangle. Spectra tangles, a lot more than mono or cable. Hollowcore tangles the most in my experience, which was not just a percentage of the time. It tangled every dive session. Softer lines will probably tangle a lot less on an enclosed track gun as you do not need to wrap the line at the muzzle to hold the shaft down. I even had hollow core as a reel line and hated it. When the line went slack it would start floating off the reel and start wrapping around the spool, reel knob, whatever. I believe this is why you see people who use synthetic line as a shooting line usually use Q-power because it is more rigid than most alternatives.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Adam Sachs » May 13th, 2015, 9:18 am

John Hughes wrote:A few things about using spectra for your shooting line especially if it is abrasive. You will get more band tangles for sure. My buddy proved this multiple times over the course of a year and you can take my word for it or you can have your own near death experiences. Seriously.


Whoa. That sounds pretty serious, John. Can you elaborate at all on what exactly happened? Was it a tangle in the bands that caused him to get wrapped or was he wrapped independently of the initial shot and then the line knotted up around him?
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Freeryde » May 13th, 2015, 11:07 am

I had my own near death experience. I had band tangles with the spectra but those are more just annoying and increase the possibility of loosing your gun to a big fish. The near death part came when I shot a good sized mako shark from about 6' away and the spectra shooting line looped a half hitch around the tip of my index finger. The shark took off like a bullet dragging me through the water so fish my mask flooded and I lost my grip on the gun. Luckily the fish stayed very close to the surface during the first part of his run allowing me to sneak a high speed breath in while being dragged. When the fish suddenly changed directions and dove for the 2000' bottom the brief period of slack allowed the half hitch to fall off of my finger. 250' of line vanished from the reel in seconds but with the super charge of adrenaline combined with the shark now getting tired I was able to swim the gun back to the swim step of the boat and fight the fish in from the safety of the swim step.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby John Hughes » May 14th, 2015, 5:30 am

Adam Sachs wrote:
John Hughes wrote:A few things about using spectra for your shooting line especially if it is abrasive. You will get more band tangles for sure. My buddy proved this multiple times over the course of a year and you can take my word for it or you can have your own near death experiences. Seriously.


Whoa. That sounds pretty serious, John. Can you elaborate at all on what exactly happened? Was it a tangle in the bands that caused him to get wrapped or was he wrapped independently of the initial shot and then the line knotted up around him?


my buddy John (seacreacher on SB years back) shot multiple big fish within feet of the gun. Each time, the shooting line (spectra) fluffed forward and landed on the bands. When the fish took off, the shooting line got tangled in the bands and he found himself 3ft away from a hot 50lbr getting towed down. You've only got a few choices at that point. Hang on and try and rip the shaft out or get the fish turned or let go of the gun.

Also, dependent on what kind of spectra you are using the stuff knots up like crazy on the surface. Even 20' or so of shooting line can cause you big issues if it's not the stiff stuff like Mori sells. The thinner, limper spectra (that you would want as shooting line) that I see some guys using is a nightmare and inevitably I see them struggling with it. Look at Castranovas examples above.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Bill McIntyre » May 14th, 2015, 7:22 am

My two cents.

For a while I used Q Power for my shooting line. Since I was using it on my reel, it was neat to just tie the end of the reel line to the shaft. If a fish was tied up in the kelp, I could just cut the line at the shaft and then easily re-tie it on the boat. If you cut mono shooting line at the shaft, you need an entire new piece of mono to re-rig.

Twice it tangled in the bands when I shot. The first time it happened I stoned a white sea bass, so I was able to haul the fish to the surface. But if I had not stoned the fish, I would have been forced to turn loose of the gun.

The second time it happened I missed the white sea bass, but I felt that I was lucky that I missed. You either have to stone the fish or miss it. Otherwise you'll probably have to turn loose of the gun.

I went back to mono shooting line.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby chris oak » May 14th, 2015, 7:30 am

That's no lie, I remember seacreecher telling me the same story. Dynema sounds like a better idea because of it's abrasion resistance but if you are changing your mono regularly I think you are fairly safe unless the fish wraps you around a super sharp reef. I switched up my mono to this stuff Corey and Daryl talked about years ago. 1.8mm 300 lbs, 2400ft of line (800 yds)

http://www.blueoceantackle.com/monofilament.htm

It's the stuff commercial swordsfishermen use, super abrasion resistant. It is very stiff as a bonus and knock on wood I've never had a problem with it tangling on my bands. In the old days I used to use thinner diameter mono, mainly because a lot of my railguns came rigged with it. The problem is it was soft and I missed out on some big seabass because the line jammed up in the bands. The thicker stuff might not fit in railguns, especially closed muzzle railguns so buy/borrow some smaller lengths to try it out. I bought the 5lb coils last time and it's a ton of line, the problem is you have to be very careful when you are pulling line out of it because it will make a birds nest and you end up with 5lbs of nighmare ;).

Last year I shot a mid thirty yellow with the railgun at catalina, the fish went under and around a reef and shredded that line to shit but it still held strong. I was pretty impressed. BTW if you haven't seen Hollywoods rigging video, check it out. When you are using mono you definitely want to mushroom the ends with a lighter in case your crimps fail. I saw a guy in La Paz who forgot to crimp his mono and the mushroom held a big yellowtail lol.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby 32juan » May 14th, 2015, 10:50 am

John Hughes wrote: You've only got a few choices at that point. Hang on and try and rip the shaft out or get the fish turned or let go of the gun.


If you use a float line, you get another option: just grab your float line and swim up without any issues.

Floatline for the win :p
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Bill McIntyre » May 14th, 2015, 1:22 pm

32juan wrote:
John Hughes wrote: You've only got a few choices at that point. Hang on and try and rip the shaft out or get the fish turned or let go of the gun.


If you use a float line, you get another option: just grab your float line and swim up without any issues.

Floatline for the win :p


Good point. One more reason I switched.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby John Hughes » May 15th, 2015, 1:02 am

32juan wrote:
John Hughes wrote: You've only got a few choices at that point. Hang on and try and rip the shaft out or get the fish turned or let go of the gun.


If you use a float line, you get another option: just grab your float line and swim up without any issues.

Floatline for the win :p


yes except we are not talking about reels or floatlines. We are talking about shooting line. You guys need to pay attention :handgestures-thumbupleft:

regardless of reel or floatline, if your shooting line tangles in your bands you're going for a ride and are left with the options I mentioned above. DUH :p
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby AJP » August 8th, 2015, 10:05 pm

Has anyone tried using Spectra for shooting line with a roller gun?

It seems like it would work...
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Kevin » August 12th, 2015, 9:26 am

AJP wrote:Has anyone tried using Spectra for shooting line with a roller gun?

It seems like it would work...


Westbrook has been using it on his 110 RA with the Mantis. He swears by it, and has me almost convinced to switch. I will be trying it out soon.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Kwtony » August 12th, 2015, 2:40 pm

I used Wont pink line on my Needlefish Slayer, good stiff line, but I think it sunk...no bueno...that was the biggest factor for me...how quickly it sank and how easily it tangled. I hated a double wrap of this stuff, but the muzzle at the time required me to do so...only suggest single of this unless you have to shoot double...

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My mantis powered 100cm gun is wrapped with a double until i convert it to run a single..
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby AJP » September 3rd, 2017, 7:32 pm

Necroing this old thread. KWTony, where you been man? B)

Anyways, I just rigged my spear on my big gun using 2.0mm hollow core Spectra. I had seen this video of Chris Coates rigging Spectra for shooting line posted up somewhere, sometime back - I always wanted to try it. I rigged it exactly like he did using brummel locks and fingertraps. I will say that those fingertraps require some finesse to pull that doubled-over Spectra through the hollow core. I think I got it down okay now after a few frustrating, failed attempts.

I was hesitant to try this rigging due to the many stories of band tangles due to the Spectra being limber. But, I had this idea to fish in some 60 lb. fishing monofilament to the top portion of the shooting line, which runs along the shaft (the part that actually tangles in the bands. So I did it. Haven't shot the gun yet to see what happens, but I'll let y'all know if it works or not.

Anyone else using this rigging these days?

See the video I mentioned below:

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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Bill McIntyre » September 4th, 2017, 7:21 am

Wow, back from the dead. :)

Since this thread started I've tried some new stuff. I tried that 2mm hollow spectra and did the brummell lock thing as described in that video by Chris Coasts. I was proud of myself. I think I only shot it a couple of times and didn't get tangles, but I couldn't stand the way it floated around me like a spider web, so I took it off the gun.

Now I'm trying the stiff dyneema Aussie line sold by Benthic Ocean Sports.

https://benthicoceansports.com/products ... ff-dyneema

The guy who does all that pool testing of everything, spearq8, said he really got increases in range and penetration, even compared to 350 pound mono. There has been a lot of discussion by various "experts" on how to fasten it to the shaft. People say the Rob Allen knot causes a big increase in drag, so they've tried crimps. I've always been leary of crimps on dyneema, but on this stuff it seems to actually work. Mike Pooler of Benthic says he has shot a lot of big amberjack on the rigs and the crimps haven't slipped. Of course another advantage over mono is resistance to abrasion and cuts. He says he has seen the stuff saw baranacles off the leg of a rig without being cut. That isn't a big deal for us here in SoCal, but in Baja is would be valuable.

So right now I have the 1.4 mm stiff dyneema on my Denton 110, and the 1.7 on my Albacore 130. The 1.4 is listed as 330 pounds and the 1.7 at 531. And they also sell a 1.9 that tuna hunters might want. I shot a sea bass with the 1.4 and and pulled as hard as I could on the float line trying to stop it, and the crimp didn't slip. I shot a big yellowtail with the 1.7 but I'm afraid that wasn't much of a test since I stoned the fish.

I haven't had any band tangles yet. I asked Mike Pooler about tangles. He said the only ones he was aware of were with guns using a reverse mechanism without a routing tab to keep the line down away from the shaft. In one of the photos below you can see how I have stainless loops on the side of the gun for that purpose. and routing the bungee through that loop keeps you float line from pulling the bungee off of the line release. So far, so good.

I liked the bright green too. Its even more visible that the Momoi outrigger line.

On the other board, Jon (Behslayer) claims to have shot thousands of pounds of wahoo and tuna using just a simple overhand knot through the hole in the fin. I haven't had the balls to try it yet, but I did it just to take a photo. Knots are said to decrease the strength of dyneema, but if that 1.7mm lost 50% to the knot, you'd still have 275 pounds, which is all I need. It sure would be simple to do it that way. You could easily shorten your shooting line by small amounts, and retie in the water even wearing gloves.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Bill McIntyre » September 4th, 2017, 8:42 am

One other slightly related thing- the Hunt shaft that came with my Albacore 130 had the line attachment hole in the rest tab rather than in a loading fin. So I attached the line there, and have decided I like it. I've drilled holes in rest tabs on a couple of other shafts. It keeps the shooting line attachment loop from being messed up in the wishbones, and some people say it decreases the change of tangles since there is less line up near the shaft.
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby AJP » September 13th, 2017, 6:15 pm

Bill McIntyre wrote:...did the brummell lock thing as described in that video by Chris Coasts. I was proud of myself.


I was proud of myself too...like I accomplished something in life...seriously. :D

Thanks for the tip on the Aussie Reel line. Seems like a double crimp might serve well with this line. I might try that. I won't be trying the overhand knot trick - other spearos can do that and be cooler than me. I'll have peace of mind instead. B)

I took the gun out and shot a few yellowtail and even a football-sized tuna with it. No band tangles, but it was a mess all around me and tangled all over me a couple of times after I shot a fish. It was an unnerving experience. I wouldn't want to even have the possibility of being tangled like that with bigger fish. Also, it frayed quite a bit at the attachment to the shaft. I will be moving on from this line.

More to follow...
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Re: 2mm spectra as shooting line?

Postby Behslayer » September 15th, 2017, 10:37 am

Hi Bill, looking back on it that is true. I used that Rob Allen 100% Dyneema from my reel tied to my shaft for years with just a knot. Sometimes I'd snip it off and tie a new one. Landed a whole lot of 50lb King Mackeral like that. But that's a very fine weave outer over a dyneema core. Hollowcore isn't the best shooting line and even more so if it's with less strands like an 8 strand. As said above, this is accentuated with double wraps, and some guns just tangle easier than others.

It's important to keep track of your range and tailor your lines to your range.
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