Abellan gun evolution

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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Trace » July 30th, 2017, 11:44 am

A lot of good information. Thank you.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Bill McIntyre » July 30th, 2017, 1:46 pm

All Spring I was diving in filthy kelp beds along the coast where my Denton 110 was more than big enough, but a few weeks ago I finally got to dive in clear water out at the islands where I could try out my Albacore 130. I was really pleased to stone a yellowtail with the first shot. I hope it wasn't a fluke. :)
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby David Z » July 31st, 2017, 4:39 am

castronova wrote:I just got 2 hunt 8mm shafts for my Denton 120, they are one of the nicest shafts I think I've ever seen. Dean/Mori quality with a fully recessed flopper. You'll really like them.


Castro, although I think the Hunt shafts are :eusa-dance: , they cost me double what I pay for the sigalsub sharkfin shafts. I don't think I will be changing from the 7 or 7.5mm sigalsub coned shafts anytime soon :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » July 31st, 2017, 5:09 am

I get it. I've shot Rob Allen/Spearmaster in the past because they are so much cheaper. I go through quite a few shafts a year and not only that I don't like having to think about a lot of money when it comes to saving one. Easier decision to let go when those times come.

But... These hunts shafts are incredibly nice and better yet, the most accurate shaft I've ever shot. The shaft is noticeably more accurate in real life shooting than the other flopper shafts I have. I would feel confident in a small circle before, these are just exact. Con's - the lower profile allows them to pass all the way through fish much more often getting me hung up on reef and the recessed area and thinner flopper are weak points and much harder to tune and keep tuned.

I don't know how much you are paying for sigalsub but not sure what I have could be double the price of any other shaft, maybe $20 more. You are either paying a premium for Hunt or getting a great deal on Sigal, or a little of both.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » July 31st, 2017, 5:09 am

If the goal is Dean or Mori Quality, why not just get a Dean or Mori shaft? Just sayin....
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » July 31st, 2017, 5:22 am

Sometimes we find cool new things and we test them out. Harry got these from Hunt just to try so I tried them, I wasn't actively seeking out anything. I have both Addiction and Mori shafts at home. Those shafts are for different guns. I'm not saying the Hunt is better for everything, there are trade off's in both designs.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby AJP » July 31st, 2017, 6:28 am

Can you post a pic or two of the sharkfins and notch area of one of these Hunt shafts? Thanks.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » July 31st, 2017, 6:33 am

AJP wrote:Can you post a pic or two of the sharkfins and notch area of one of these Hunt shafts? Thanks.


Looks just like this but mine has 2 shark fins. There is also another fin about 12-16" forward of these with a hole for line attachment.

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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » July 31st, 2017, 8:10 am

what is the function of having the hole for line attachment mid shaft? I see this a lot but I thought it was more for Rollerguns.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby phil herranen » July 31st, 2017, 8:20 am

Behslayer wrote:what is the function of having the hole for line attachment mid shaft? I see this a lot but I thought it was more for Rollerguns.

Less tangles ,and because of that some guns (especially guns with very shallow tracks where the line can slip down into the stretched bands ) shoot way better with mid shaft band attachement .
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Bill McIntyre » July 31st, 2017, 8:24 am

Here are some pics of the 8.5 mm Hunt shaft in my Albacore 130. Notice that there are no holes in the loading tabs, but there is one in the rest tab. I like that. After I saw it I drilled a hole in the rest tab in the Mori shaft in my Denton 110.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » July 31st, 2017, 9:31 am

Why would a shaft with a Mid point connection have less chance of having a band tangle? From what I know if a gun is prone to band tangles the connection point in the middle makes no difference? By that I mean that one time we were trying to figure out why a gun would have a band tangle. We identified a few things but when we did try using a shaft with a mid point attachment it did not make a difference. What is the theory behind it?
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » July 31st, 2017, 9:57 am

The shafts I order from Dean I always get an extra shark fin added on just for the line hole. That is usually just in front of the loading fins equally spaced, not mid shaft. I rather not load on the same fin as the line. I feel like there is less chance of the crimp whipping back over the top and grabbing the wishbone. I like the cleaner look as well. Just preference I guess and that is my theory but I can't say its true it does make me more comfortable though.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Bill McIntyre » July 31st, 2017, 11:40 am

castronova wrote:The shafts I order from Dean I always get an extra shark fin added on just for the line hole. That is usually just in front of the loading fins equally spaced, not mid shaft. I rather not load on the same fin as the line. I feel like there is less chance of the crimp whipping back over the top and grabbing the wishbone. I like the cleaner look as well. Just preference I guess and that is my theory but I can't say its true it does make me more comfortable though.


I don't recall the crimp grabbing the wishbone, but often I drag the loop of shooting line back over the fin and it gets captured between the fin and the wishbone. It can't be good for the mono and it doesn't happen with the line attached to the loading tab.

And it does look a lot cleaner.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » July 31st, 2017, 11:55 am

It's a balance. Having extra fins surely can't be good for Hydrodynamics, and also more fins on thinner shafts doesn't seem like a good idea. Like 4 fins on a 9/32".. can't be good. but 4 fins on an 11/32" doesn't seem so bad.

JPC just a quick question. When you said that "But... These Hunt shafts are incredibly nice and better yet, the most accurate shaft I've ever shot. The shaft is noticeably more accurate in real life shooting than the other flopper shafts I have." and then you mention your Dean and Mori Shafts.. that kind of implies that you think these imported shafts are more accurate than shafts made by these two local businesses. I have a feeling that's not really what you meant to say. Could you elaborate a little. Have you ever shot a Dean Flopper or Mori Flopper shaft out of that gun?
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Bill McIntyre » July 31st, 2017, 12:10 pm

I bet it partly depends on the size of the fins. Those fins on my 8.5mm Hunt shaft are pretty small. In fact the rest tab is useless as a rest tab after the first two bands are loaded. And if I try to cheat and put a second wishbone on a fin before pulling it back to the next fin, it won't even fit.

About this buy local thing- I hope we aren't going to have a repeat of the discussion on Spearboard in the last couple of days. When you were building guns in Indonesia, I don't recall you preaching "buy American" all the time, but now that you build guns in the states, its a big thing for you.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » July 31st, 2017, 12:53 pm

No, I have not shot those flopper shafts out of this gun, they are square notch. I have shot Deans UHT and a Mori out of both your 150 RH and 165 Mid. That was more bluewater use though. Not sniping like I'm using these and other shafts for. I wasn't implying that against them or there product. I rarely use SS shafts for reef hunting anymore. These shafts I have are super recessed like I said above with very hydrodynamic floppers. It's easy to see they will be extremely accurate and also easy to see their weaknesses I mentioned before. Much more so than a full bore flopper.

I have a good relationship with Dean with shafts I've ordered from him (and for other people) and the few times I've talked to Mori he has been kind. My Mori shafts came from other guns so I've never ordered from him. I tried to one time but it was when he was down, last year maybe. Anyhow, I've wrote quite a few posts in my day about how strong the Addiction UHT shaft is, how I like my Red Tide shafts I just got, Sea Snipers new shafts are freaking awesome, etc. My comment on one product should not be taken against all others. We're splitting hairs anyways, I shoot fish with all of them and have fun using all the products out there.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » July 31st, 2017, 1:45 pm

And yes, 3 total fins on 5/16" and 4 on 11/32".
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » July 31st, 2017, 9:07 pm

Great thanks for the explanation. I have seen some nice work from Dean, including those nice shafts he custom made for your Albacore, and Mori is on another level when it comes to the craft and I was quite sure their shafts could shoot as true as any. I've seen Mori Shafts hit a 1" Circle three shots in a row at 20'.. I guess if I was looking for the ultimate accuracy in a shaft it would be polished and sauced, but like you said we are splitting hairs here.

Bill, we don't need to have that discussion here. If you want to have a long discussion about why I think people should support their local shapers and buy locally when they can PM me. But.. since you bring it up. There's a bit of a difference between me building guns with my own hands in my backyard in Indonesia with American imported Shafts, Bands, and Mechs, and for example sending an email and some cash and bringing in 1000 guns made by someone else.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby phil herranen » August 1st, 2017, 6:43 am

Behslayer wrote:Why would a shaft with a Mid point connection have less chance of having a band tangle? From what I know if a gun is prone to band tangles the connection point in the middle makes no difference? By that I mean that one time we were trying to figure out why a gun would have a band tangle. We identified a few things but when we did try using a shaft with a mid point attachment it did not make a difference. What is the theory behind it?

There are a few ways you can get band tangles , one way is the line on the top of of the gun , if it sags down under the stretched bands it can catch on the way out , so less line on top =less chance of that type of snag occuring . This also happens more often on guns with old mono that has shaped to the muzzle and has a muzzle that let's the line wedge into the line wrap .
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » August 1st, 2017, 7:13 am

Hi Phil, I thought it might make a big difference. Peter Tylor did a truly exhaustive research on Band Tangles all using High Speed Cameras and Slo Motion from various angles. If it was as simple as midpoint connection on a shaft that would be nice, but it's not. There is a what I could best describe as a wave length to each line and gun which results in the possibility of loops of line interacting with the bands near the bandslot. I figured by changing the length of the line in the first loop to the mid point of the shaft maybe you would adjust the wavelength so that loop did not occur right near the band slot. But it didn't happen that way. If you are having band tangles consistently, you can think to change your line. If you are having them with Mono, try Dyneema. If you are having them with Dyneema, try Mono, cable etc. Cable has less tendency to band tangle, but when it does it sucks because it cuts your bands and or snaps and you lose the shaft. I'm playing around with different positions for the front line guide too. but I always figured those mid point Shafts were really designed for Rollers because as the back of the shaft passes through the rollers there is no line to get hung up in the cinch. I guess the same is true for Classic Band guns, but that's not what causes tangles in classic band guns. ie there is no Cinch.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Bill McIntyre » August 1st, 2017, 8:39 am

Speaking of shafts- I couldn't find a source for an 8mm stainless flopper shaft with rest tab for my Denton 110 so I texted GR Tarr and he included one for me in his last order. It took few weeks, but he is putting it in the mail today. Of course I could have asked Mori to make me one. He made the threaded shaft that I'm using in that gun. But this one from GR is a bit cheaper and Castranova recommend them, so I thought I might as well take a look.

GR said that this recent shaft order was for 1000 shafts. I had no idea he was doing so much business.

And they are all made in the USA. :D
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » August 1st, 2017, 9:20 am

Also, another reason I like the extra fin is for cable. If you string a fish the cable turns into a slinky. I usually try and change the shaft out but when things are on fire I may stick with it until there is down time. The extra fin keeps that coiled cable further away from wishbones and bands converging on each other.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Behslayer » August 1st, 2017, 11:48 am

Wow Bill you're really celebrating Made in America week. Good job. Those shafts are made in Florida. One of the Shaft makers in the state of Florida. I saw some the other day. Very nice. Ofcourse if you wanted to develop something specifically for your business, they could do it. They do a Centerless grinding process on those shafts which is fairly impressive because that process super expensive and normally used for the Aircraft industry to assure exact diameter tolerances. My understanding is that it's not a straightening process though. We make our Shafts in Bridgeport, Connecticut. It's pretty cool to go into that machine shop and see the history of the place which has been there since the early 1900's. They make parts for the US Military, these days primarily Helicopter Parts for Sikorsky. You would probably like it there. There's a learning curve to making really good shafts and I think Mori is at the very top of that curve. I don't sell shafts. Even off the CNC, etc.. I still hand work and hand tune each one, add Shaft Sauce etc.. and it's quite labor intensive. Sometimes I'll spend an entire day just filing, buffing, polishing, tuning shafts.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby phil herranen » August 1st, 2017, 9:03 pm

Behslayer wrote:Hi Phil, I thought it might make a big difference. Peter Tylor did a truly exhaustive research on Band Tangles all using High Speed Cameras and Slo Motion from various angles. If it was as simple as midpoint connection on a shaft that would be nice, but it's not. There is a what I could best describe as a wave length to each line and gun which results in the possibility of loops of line interacting with the bands near the bandslot. I figured by changing the length of the line in the first loop to the mid point of the shaft maybe you would adjust the wavelength so that loop did not occur right near the band slot. But it didn't happen that way. If you are having band tangles consistently, you can think to change your line. If you are having them with Mono, try Dyneema. If you are having them with Dyneema, try Mono, cable etc. Cable has less tendency to band tangle, but when it does it sucks because it cuts your bands and or snaps and you lose the shaft. I'm playing around with different positions for the front line guide too. but I always figured those mid point Shafts were really designed for Rollers because as the back of the shaft passes through the rollers there is no line to get hung up in the cinch. I guess the same is true for Classic Band guns, but that's not what causes tangles in classic band guns. ie there is no Cinch.


When I was experimentin with band tangles ,I exagerated problems until it would tangle every shot ,then I would find out how to stop the tangle without fixing the problem , a hole in the rest tab was one of the things that worked to fix a band tangle caused by a muzzle snag or line under the band's .

It's not a end all solution, but it dose help for some problems on some guns
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby Bill McIntyre » August 2nd, 2017, 10:17 am

Last week I was showing a diver on my boat my shaft with the line attached to the rest tab, and he mentioned something that could be a down side for California divers. He said that if you were pulling a fish up shaft-first through the kelp, kelp might be more likely to catch on the shaft since more was sticking up behind the rest tab. I'm not sure how much of a big deal this is. A majority of the time when we bring fish up through the kelp we are bringing the fish first, with the shaft trailing behind.And if you are pulling the shaft up first, kelp can still catch behind the loading tab where the line is attached. I guess that if the shaft is not vertical, there will be more shaft to catch if the line is attached to the rest tab, but 'm not sure how much off of vertical the shaft would be.

I'm going out tomorrow, and I'll do my best to investigate the problem.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » August 2nd, 2017, 10:35 am

He's absolutely right on this. While most the time I have to dive to get grouper out of ledges anyway sometimes you can swim in front of the ledge and pull them out. With this set-up it's not worth wasting your time. I also get smaller fish like mutton snapper and yellowjacks getting the shaft jammed in between rocks or wrapped on fans, etc. more often with the center point attachment and you can't simply pull them around small obstacles like a tail end attachment shaft.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby phil herranen » August 2nd, 2017, 5:13 pm

castronova wrote:He's absolutely right on this. While most the time I have to dive to get grouper out of ledges anyway sometimes you can swim in front of the ledge and pull them out. With this set-up it's not worth wasting your time. I also get smaller fish like mutton snapper and yellowjacks getting the shaft jammed in between rocks or wrapped on fans, etc. more often with the center point attachment and you can't simply pull them around small obstacles like a tail end attachment shaft.



On the plus side , with a pass threw shot your flopper shaft turns into a slip tip
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby AJP » August 2nd, 2017, 9:50 pm

On the topic of Abellan gun evolution, I hear these products will soon be either assembled, or to some degree, manufactured in the US in the near future. Any update on this? Not that this matters to me a great deal - just wondering. There is a huge shortage of these guns right now though...

Any word on any evolution to the design? At some point, the new guns are going to get a mechanism upgrade(?), or so I hear...

Do share! Thanks. :bow-blue:
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby castronova » August 3rd, 2017, 5:18 am

I'll share what I know. While I am good friends with these guys I am not involved with the company and only know what we casually share in texts discussing spearfishing. I do know some of the ideas in design and material that are being considered but don't know what decisions are final and don't think they'd want me to share all the ideas they have considered.

I know the blanks and then stocks will be manufactured in Fl. I know they were probably going to switch the Ermes sub double roller mech as Harry has stated but I'm not sure if just for the Albacore or for all models. I know they have worked on manufacturing the handle with 100 different materials and were working on molds to be made in the U.S. What I saw was so indestructible it was hard to believe. The composite materials available today are very impressive. The ergo grip will be even better designed and have a grit layer. I don't know about the metal parts (muzzle/trigger guard). One would think they would use the rest of the stock of those parts that have been made before they make any changes.

These guys make tweaks and changes in design and material almost daily to test. These guns are something that will never be stagnant, that I do know. It takes a lot of time to get going but in the near future I believe you will see significant stock increase.

They have put in some serious hours in the past year (or longer) to get this off the ground.
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Re: Abellan gun evolution

Postby kavachi » August 11th, 2017, 2:43 am

phil herranen wrote:
castronova wrote:He's absolutely right on this. While most the time I have to dive to get grouper out of ledges anyway sometimes you can swim in front of the ledge and pull them out. With this set-up it's not worth wasting your time. I also get smaller fish like mutton snapper and yellowjacks getting the shaft jammed in between rocks or wrapped on fans, etc. more often with the center point attachment and you can't simply pull them around small obstacles like a tail end attachment shaft.


On the plus side, with a pass threw shot your flopper shaft turns into a slip tip


yeah - for reef bashing where 3 metres range [single band, single wrap 130 gun] is all thats needed i run line from shaft tail, as mentioned above makes a lot easier to retrieve shaft from structure, and quicker to remove fish. But for longer range and open water, on twin & triple band guns i've become a fan of 'giant sliptip' toggle effect of the loading tab-attached line. and lack of band tangles
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